"Instead of protecting their feelings for them, I’ve learned that it’s their job to protect their feelings. It’s my job to give them the truth, and you can do it in an empathic way.”

In this episode, Craig Anderson speaks with Peter Dunn, CEO of Your Money Line, about the leadership lessons that come from embracing empathy and self-awareness. Peter recounts his early experiences where he focused on achieving his personal goals, only to realize that true leadership means helping others grow. He shares how this shift in perspective transformed his approach and led to better team outcomes.

Things to listen for:

• (00:00) Intro
• (02:32) Lightning round with Peter Dunn
• (04:05) Setting up a “talent bomb”
• (11:09) How self-awareness shapes leadership growth
• (15:35) Leadership is a privilege
• (16:37) The power of empathy in leadership
• (21:57) Maturity means being comfortable with difficult conversations

After You Listen:

• Get your copy of Give and Take by Adam Grant
• Connect with Peter Dunn on LinkedIn
• Check out Your Money Line
• Connect with Craig on LinkedIn
• Subscribe to Craig’s "The Evolving Leader" newsletter
• Check out Craig’s monthly free training on holding difficult conversations

Key Takeaways:

• Leadership is about providing resources and removing obstacles to help your team succeed
• Empathy in communication, especially during difficult conversations, is crucial for effective leadership
• Nurturing potential in team members who may not see it in themselves promotes internal growth and leadership development

This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human. 

Craig Anderson [00:00:00]:

The teammate looked at me and said, I didn't apply because I didn't think I could do the job. Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. In the last business I ran, we were a call center company. We had, at any given time, about 70 people on the call center floor. But we were growing, and we had a need for managers, and we were even starting in an inside sales unit. I really wanted to pull from within.

Craig Anderson [00:00:35]:

I didn't really want to go outside to hire these. I really wanted to provide promotional opportunities for the team. And there's someone I'd had my eye on in the call center who I thought would be a good candidate for one of the inside sales jobs. And we went through the process and we posted the role, and his name wasn't on the application. And I called him in. I said, James, why didn't you apply for this job? And he said, well, I didn't think I could do the job, so I didn't get the job. Even so, I didn't apply for the role. And I realized that the challenge was and why we were struggling to find people in that group to come out and take on some of these higher level roles is they didn't see themselves in those roles.

Craig Anderson [00:01:11]:

And it was a real challenge to kind of build up, and one, get to know people on the team, and then two, have the empathy to kind of connect with them and see what's going on and help them see something that maybe they don't see in themselves, but you do. In today's episode of executive Evolution, I speak with Peter Dunn, founder CEO of Your Money Line, and we have a great conversation about many things about leadership, including empathy. So let's hear the story of Pete's Executive Evolution. Pete Dunn, welcome to the executive Evolution podcast. Thanks for coming on.

Peter Dunn [00:01:48]:

I'm glad to. Glad to be here. You've been a guest on my show before, so it's nice to return the favor.

Craig Anderson [00:01:54]:

Absolutely, yeah. And hopefully we won't have any discussions about my former life as a student loan guy, but, you know, we never know where it'll go.

Peter Dunn [00:02:01]:

I was hoping we would, but whatever.

Craig Anderson [00:02:04]:

That's my next book or first book should be like, leadership lessons from the student loan game.

Peter Dunn [00:02:08]:

That's actually a great idea. It's so stressful that people could glean something from that.

Craig Anderson [00:02:12]:

That's right. That's right. And here at the end, we'll talk a little bit. You are getting ready to release your 12th book, right?

Peter Dunn [00:02:19]:

I am. Dirty dozen, I guess. I've decided to call it in this here moment. Yeah. This time it's not a personal finance book, though. It's actually for HR leaders. So go figure.

Craig Anderson [00:02:30]:

Nice. I like it. All right, well, very good. Well, Pete, we always like to start out with the lightning round, which is a complete misnomer because it never goes quickly. But it's always the same three questions, so it's somewhat lightning like. So we will dive right into that and then get into your story. So, Pete, you're an author. You've probably read a lot of books.

Craig Anderson [00:02:48]:

What is the best leadership book you have ever read?

Peter Dunn [00:02:52]:

I'm going to go two weird routes. Number one, Give and Take by Adam Grant. I think it's about building a network and about how some people are takers from relationships, some people are givers, and some people try to match it equally. And it just kind of walks through how to approach relationships. And very frankly, while it's about networks and relationships, I think leadership. Leadership is about network and relationships. So I would say that although it's not a traditional book, and then I think shoe Dog, Phil Knight's biography of autobiography about how we built Nike, it's called Shoe Dog. Again, not a leadership book, but there's so much leadership within it that I've read it two or three times, oddly.

Peter Dunn [00:03:34]:

And by read, I mean audiobook.

Craig Anderson [00:03:36]:

Nice. So going. So I think it's interesting, though, what you mentioned about the Adam Grant book, right. The giving and taking. And I think a lot of people get into, like, a leadership role, especially, like, where you are now running an entire business. Right. That's a lot of take, at least. I found there's a lot of energy getting pulled from you throughout the time because everyone needs something from you, both just supportive and information.

Craig Anderson [00:04:00]:

But I found it good and I enjoyed it. But it can be very emotionally draining.

Peter Dunn [00:04:05]:

It can. And I think I approached it wrong for a number of years. Early in my career as an employer, I thought that the people were there to serve my goals, and that approach was misguided, and I actually have guilt around that and how that didn't serve really good people's careers. At this point, though, I view my job as the CEO of a 35 person company is to embolden people with resources to accomplish their goals and help remove roadblocks at the same time. And that is a completely different approach and is working much, much better. And it feels much more authentic and fair.

Craig Anderson [00:04:51]:

Yeah. And one is almost like management. And what you're talking about in the second case is leadership. Right. I'm here to show, you know, here's the vision. How can I help you accomplish the goals to get us there? Right. That's. That's where you can really build your team up.

Craig Anderson [00:05:04]:

And that, I think, helps people feel more aligned with the overall mission of the company.

Peter Dunn [00:05:09]:

I believe so. And I think it's really important to say, and I want to be incredibly explicit about this, is that I was just a really bad leader early. And it's because my business was based on a personal brand. It was like, hey, everyone helped me accomplish my dreams, and I wasn't a mean person. I just wasn't. I've seen good now, and I wasn't that. And I think where people are listening to this, you kind of gotta humble yourself if you're listening to a leadership podcast and say, I've been what I've been, but I'm gonna give myself the opportunity to get better. So I've been forced to extend myself some grace.

Peter Dunn [00:05:46]:

And one of my goals as a business owner is I want to set off a talent bomb. So for me, that means someday, if we happen to exit as a business, that we've got all these incredible budding leaders that can go start their own companies. Craig, I used to. I know you're a Florida Gators football fan. I'm more of an NFL guy myself. But I always loved the NFL coaching trees where this coach led to these coaches and these coaches led these coaches. And for me, one of my dreams is to set off a coaching tree within the central Indiana business community.

Craig Anderson [00:06:19]:

I love it. No, I can think of, even when I think of exact target here in Indianapolis that built a great brand and ultimately were purchased by Salesforce. But you look at all the people who are in the Indianapolis community now, who are leading their own companies or leaders inside companies that all kind of spun out of that, whatever. Gosh, that was ten years ago, 15 years ago. I don't even remember. Yeah, but it's amazing.

Peter Dunn [00:06:41]:

Exactly.

Craig Anderson [00:06:42]:

Right, right.

Peter Dunn [00:06:42]:

And then that led to something like even lessonly, which, you know, there's elements there and then that had its own talent bomb explode when it exited. So exactly what I'm talking about.

Craig Anderson [00:06:54]:

I love it. All right, well, you touched on this a little bit, but I will ask you then you said you've seen leadership done well. Who is your leadership crush?

Peter Dunn [00:07:02]:

I'm going with Allison Melanchton. I talk about her all the time. She's an executive at the Indianapolis motor Speedway. She's one of those people behind the scenes of everything big that's ever happened in indie. From a sports perspective. Some people know her name, some people don't. But for those that are in the know, she's the person. She gets it done.

Peter Dunn [00:07:24]:

She's one of the best active listeners I've ever encountered. She demands trust with her kindness. Like, she's just. She's amazing. And I've had the pleasure of telling this to her face, to her. I love her from afar. Right. I just, like, I so appreciate her.

Peter Dunn [00:07:40]:

So if someday I have a quarter of the impact that she's had, I will be very pleased.

Craig Anderson [00:07:44]:

Love it. All right, last question. In ten words or less, define your definition of leadership.

Peter Dunn [00:07:53]:

Providing resources and removing roadblocks to succeed.

Craig Anderson [00:07:59]:

Love it. You got it. You're in. I've got a sense for these now, I don't count it, but that felt right.

Peter Dunn [00:08:04]:

It felt like nothing.

Craig Anderson [00:08:05]:

Felt like nine.

Peter Dunn [00:08:06]:

Not a numbers guy. I'm not a numbers guy.

Craig Anderson [00:08:08]:

Yeah, no, but it follows through from what you're saying. Right. It's like our job as leaders is to get things out of the way and help our people succeed towards the larger goals we're setting for the business. Right. That's what allows them to be successful and your business to be successful.

Peter Dunn [00:08:19]:

Yeah. I will also say I have an executive senior leadership team here that has forced me to become a better leader because they're such high functioning leaders themselves that by them being vulnerable and willing to push me and to say uncomfortable things to me and give me feedback that they were actually leading their teams better than I was leading them. And so that's never a fun realization. I mean, I had a lot of success early in my career at doing other things than being a business leader. So it was quite humbling to learn that that's something that I'm still trying to master.

Craig Anderson [00:08:56]:

Yeah. Well, you know, it's so funny because just earlier today I was meeting with somebody and we were talking about leadership team, right. If you don't have the right leadership team, your job is so much harder. And when you get all the right people in the right places, it changes everything for you.

Peter Dunn [00:09:13]:

It does. And I've used the word humbled a couple times. It's humbling. It's humbling for people to share their gifts and a part of their career with you. We're very open here at Your Money Line about, hey, you're here as long as you're here. And I don't mean that in terms of like, with a stick. I mean, it's just realistic. We're all, this is a stop for all of us.

Peter Dunn [00:09:36]:

Some of it's longer than others. And I'm just grateful that people spend some of their career here. I don't know how long it's going to be. And again, that's not a negative thing. It's just. It's acknowledging that at some point, what if they do need to go take another job? Because it's the best thing for them. Great. They should.

Peter Dunn [00:09:53]:

And I'm really thankful that they spent some of their time with me. So, yeah, there's a pressure in having really good executive leadership team, but it's also a beautiful, beautiful thing to watch.

Craig Anderson [00:10:04]:

Yeah. I've never understood. Although, you know, I've been disappointed when people left me, but I've never been mad. I'm disappointed when I lose somebody who's been great for the company, great for me, but when they're leaving because it's a great opportunity and they're taking with them something that you maybe help them see in themselves, I think it's great. I love it. It's a good thing because it propagates out into the world. Better leaders.

Peter Dunn [00:10:26]:

Yeah, it's weird. We have a company, of course, with investors and shareholders and a board of directors and those sorts of things. So ultimately, we are trying to move the ball forward down the field rather aggressively. And so it's weird for me to say things like, my happiness and my satisfaction is not the ultimate goal here. However, I do believe that if I'm going to share so many hours with the people I work with every day, their careers are as important as my career, and their outcomes, outside of Your Money Line are just as important as the outcome of Your Money Line. It's a strange thing to say, but I believe it.

Craig Anderson [00:11:05]:

Yeah. No, I believe it. It's true. So you've learned a lot. You've even talked about some of your own evolution so far. But go back in time. What was your first. What do you consider to be your first real leadership role?

Peter Dunn [00:11:18]:

Can it be pre workplace or not really?

Craig Anderson [00:11:20]:

Absolutely. Mine is banned. President. I was a petty tyrant, and I fully admit it. So I am excited to hear yours.

Peter Dunn [00:11:27]:

I always ended up being the captain over this or that through sports. I have some natural leadership qualities that only work for so long, and let's just call them charm and beguile. Right? I can convince others, uh, and influence others to try to accomplish a common goal, and I think that's a natural gift. That's in my blood, I just do. But that's, that's where it fell short. That's really where it fell short, because I didn't understand all the, the elements of leadership can be developed. Leadership needs to be stoked and poured into. It's not just that you're charismatic and you can convince people to do stuff, and I relied on that for way too long.

Craig Anderson [00:12:10]:

Yeah, I think there's, I don't really buy the whole, you know, born leader thing. I think there's probably some skills and talents that you might have intrinsically that make it easier to get started. But charm and talent can only get people to follow you for so long. You know, there has to be something more. And you've talked about pouring into people and, and getting things out of the way and giving them support.

Peter Dunn [00:12:29]:

Right.

Craig Anderson [00:12:30]:

And that's not just, hey, let's go. I'm the loudest voice. Follow me.

Peter Dunn [00:12:34]:

Yeah, it's been a. Let's get weird. So several years ago, President Obama, at the time, President Obama was giving a speech, and he was talking about infrastructure and the things the government does, and he said something to the effect of which then got sound bited, clipped up. You didn't build that business. And people got really mad. Business owners and everyone got really mad because he was saying the government provided roads and infrastructure and all these things. You didn't do it alone. And I remember hearing that for the first time as a business owner and being really upset.

Peter Dunn [00:13:08]:

And I took a breath and I was like, he's kind of right. He's kind of right. I got to this point of, like, I did not do this alone. My entire education background, my upbringing, the positivity that my teachers and administrators poured into me, telling me I could do it, I could be whatever I wanted. It's corny and dismissive at the time when I look back on it, really kind of born on third base. Right. And so do I want to run home and then not turn back and help other people cross the play? Do I want to close the door behind me? And I think it was growing up in my thirties and figuring that out of, like, geez, I can't take the privilege that I've been given and just use it for my own good. I just, I can't do that.

Peter Dunn [00:13:56]:

And it's not that I was choosing to do that prior to that. I just didn't realize that was the choice I was kind of making.

Craig Anderson [00:14:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's an interesting thing that you say there. The last business I actually had, we were a call center business. As you know, you came out and talked to them once, and trying to go into that group and say, hey, I see something in you that you could actually be a leader. And having to convince them of that was kind of, for me, shocking, because as I go out there, I'm kind of used to other people who kind of write, grew up in it like me, and maybe they just have no one ever told them, you can do this, right? And going out there and saying, hey, James, I see the ability in you to actually go out and be a team leader here. He's like, no, I don't think I could do that. And it was sometimes a struggle to convince them that they could do it and then give them the support to do it.

Craig Anderson [00:14:48]:

It is really interesting that some people just don't see it in themselves.

Peter Dunn [00:14:51]:

Yeah, I think with my upbringing, I thought I belonged in literally any room I would be in. I thought I deserved to be there and I could handle myself. It's not until I started working with more people I realized that other people didn't actually hold that belief. And so a young guy here within the last few months, I'm just young, young, really talented, though. And this guy, he belongs in any room. Any room. I would put him in any room. He's been in some of the highest stakes conversations that I've been involved with, with some other stakeholders in our business.

Peter Dunn [00:15:21]:

I just looked at him. I was like, you may have the highest ceiling in our entire organization, you know, and it is, to your point of, like, it's really gratifying that you're starting to see some of these budding leadership skills within someone, and then the goal is to then to try to help them develop it.

Craig Anderson [00:15:38]:

Yeah, it really is interesting. Now, I would say on the flip side, I've also seen people who think they are deserving of leadership roles, who are absolutely terrible at it, and they think, well, this is what, you know, I should be in the leadership role. And they take that for granted. I really, I think, evolved over time to look at it as it's actually a privilege, and you don't really deserve to be a leader. You kind of have to earn your way into it, and it shouldn't just be given. You can be in charge, but you're not necessarily a leader.

Peter Dunn [00:16:06]:

I think it's really true, Craig. I think without beating myself up too much, I sort of muscled it for a very long time with not a lot of nuance of leadership other than charm. And it's not until I learned some leadership skills that things really started succeeding even more around here. And it's a big difference. It's a big difference between being a manager, a director or an executive leader. They're just wildly different. I did not understand that for two thirds of my career.

Craig Anderson [00:16:38]:

So I'm curious. You said you learned leadership skills. Where did those come from for you? How did you kind of pick those up? Was it books? Was it a coach? Was it a two tablets coming down from a mountain? Where did you pick these things up?

Peter Dunn [00:16:50]:

I did not get the call from the Lord about my leadership skills. Maybe I did and they were on digital tablets. But I'm a voracious reader and consumer of podcasts and things, and I love to derive meaning out of things that are not meant for business purposes. But I love to you watch a military thriller or something like that, a survival story, and I love to derive the lesson for me and what we're trying to do out of stuff like that. I don't talk about it a lot because it's obnoxious, but I do take something out of that. Or you're reading a book written by a famous coach and how they persuade. I love stuff like that. So I read a lot.

Peter Dunn [00:17:35]:

I just read a lot. And it's not that I read a lot of leadership books, I just read a lot of books that happen to teach me about leadership.

Craig Anderson [00:17:42]:

Yeah, I always laugh. One of my favorite movies that I think has a ton of leadership lessons, especially if they're dragging people through change, is moneyball. If you've ever seen that movie, it's of course amazing, both good and bad, of how to drag an organization that doesn't want to change through necessary change.

Peter Dunn [00:17:59]:

You know what I've learned in books, any Michael Lewis book for that matter, whether it be the big short or I forget the name of the one that just went through FTX or whatever, the digital currency thing that I read that one, it's speaking truth when it's not comfortable to do so. Right. There's an element to that. And one of my biggest lessons in the last twelve months is giving important feedback to people when they're falling short of their goals, our goals. And instead of protecting their feelings for them, I've learned that it's their job to protect their feelings. It's my job to give them the truth. And you can do it in an empathetic way. And the tough part about that, Craig, is when you're in a relationship with people like that and you haven't previously done it, and then you decide to start dipping your toes in the water of.

Peter Dunn [00:18:54]:

Of appropriately critical feedback. It's still messy.

Craig Anderson [00:18:58]:

Right.

Peter Dunn [00:18:58]:

And so, speaking truth, but in a compassionate way, I think is an interesting way to think about leadership.

Craig Anderson [00:19:06]:

Yeah, I think empathy, we talk a lot about it now, like, over the last few years. It's kind of the hot, you know, vulnerability and empathy are the two hot leadership things. But I think empathy is so important, especially when you're dealing with bad news or just trying to understand where people are struggling, you know, coming through banking, where you hire a lot of people, then you lay them all off, then you hire a lot of people and you lay them all off. And Susan White, who I have to always apologize to one day after we had a difficult round, said, boy, you're really good at this. And I used to have this joke, oh, God, I never want to be good at laying people off, which was unfair to Susan, because what she was really saying was, you're doing this with empathy, even in the worst case scenario, where you have to lay people off because the business, for some reason just didn't perform like you hoped. You can still treat people with empathy in those scenarios and then extend that up with the person who's struggling. You know, I find so often people are like, well, I'm not going to really dig into it. I really just need to tell them they need to perform better said, aren't you with the release bit curious to wonder maybe why they're struggling and have a little empathy for maybe why that is? I'm not saying it means they can just never perform, but maybe we can learn something about how to help them and get things out of their way, as you pointed out earlier.

Peter Dunn [00:20:17]:

Weird story for you. I was writing an article, a guest column in a fashion magazine. This is true. It's. It's not as if you know me. It's not as weird as it sounds.

Craig Anderson [00:20:26]:

Maybe the first part, did it have a ten question quiz?

Peter Dunn [00:20:29]:

No, it didn't. And so I'm interviewing the most famous black opera singer in the world. Her name's Angela Brown, and she's just. Commands the stage as an opera singer. I'm not a big opera guy, right. But I'm learning about it so I can interviewer. But she's like, she's amazing the way she performs. She's so emotional and like, it is just like, powerful.

Peter Dunn [00:20:50]:

Everyone in the audience is crying. And so I'm asking her, I'm like, okay, you're singing these lyrics, whether they're in Italian or English, and they're incredibly emotional words. You put your whole self on the stage, and I said, how in the world do you not just cry when you're up there? And how do you not just emote more than you do than perform? She said, you're missing it. And I'm like, of course I miss it. I miss everything. You're missing it. I was like, well, tell me. She goes, it's not about me.

Peter Dunn [00:21:17]:

And I think about it that in leadership sometimes of when I've got to go and give these really emotional pieces of feedback or I've got to let someone go or something like that, and I'm thinking about my feelings and what it means to me and how I'm going to say it and I'm crying and I'm getting choked up. And then I think, oh, yeah, it's literally not about me. The reason I'm doing this, the reason I'm communicating in a professional way is because it's actually about them. So again, I love deriving leadership from really weird spots. And if you're not driving leadership qualities from a opera singer in a fashion magazine, where can you derive them from?

Craig Anderson [00:21:56]:

Where else can you get them? And, you know, when you kind of had that realization, how did that cause a lot of people that I talk to really struggle with those accountability and difficult conversations around those topics. When that piece kicked in for you, did it make it easier for you to do them? Did you dread them less? I mean, how did it kind of change for you and evolve once you had that understanding?

Peter Dunn [00:22:18]:

I hadn't thought to put it into words, but something you just said really resonated with me. I dread them less. I totally dread them less now. I've also turned this corner where if something inconvenient or unpreferred happens to me, I'm not so frustrated by the inconvenience. I've now sort of, I can just take the challenge that's in front of us and say, all right, let's work on this challenge. And I think that's just a maturity that comes with running a business for a while and surviving and those sorts of things. But from a leadership perspective, in terms of hard conversations, I definitely do not dread conversations as much as I used to. I'm very effusive with praise.

Peter Dunn [00:22:58]:

Like, I will praise. I will find your best quality and I will gas you up. Like, I will you would. But what's weird, the bad side of that is I was so fully opposite when it came to constructive criticism, you know, and then what's sort of funny when you, when you start to get. Get it going. It's like, okay, I'll give you some feedback here or there. Then you find yourself making sure that you're not giving feedback in categories that are probably off limits. Right, right.

Peter Dunn [00:23:28]:

It's like, yeah, you know, the tone of your voice, or, I mean, sometimes it's good. Sometimes, like, you know, it's those sort of things of like, then. Then the problem becomes, is this something I should bring up or not? And then you can just say yes or no and move on to, yeah.

Craig Anderson [00:23:41]:

Sticking to the facts is a lot easier. Tone is a tough one. So, another question I have. Pete. Nita. So you have this business now. You've been growing it for several years, and you've had leadership roles before, but this is such an intensely mission driven company at Your Money Line. I mean, a lot of companies have missions, but this is really intense and personal about people's money.

Craig Anderson [00:24:01]:

How does that translate to leading a company like that, where that mission is so clear and meaningful?

Peter Dunn [00:24:09]:

It's deeply personal to me. I've had a loved one that had a bad financial outcome, and it haunts me. It just still haunts me. It haunts me every day. So when we fix a person's financial life or help them find a new path to make decisions, and we get a lot of positive feedback when we do that, I'm trying to solve a problem that I couldn't solve. I'm trying to solve a problem that was impossible to solve. So I'm on a bit of a mission that way. Right.

Peter Dunn [00:24:40]:

I feel like it's a penance, like it's a. And so it's so deeply personal to me that while we do have to talk about revenue and we have to talk about money and numbers and sales numbers, it's still seeded in that each dollar that comes into this company represents thousands of people that we're able to serve. Right now, we serve about 750,000 people through, by the way. I mean, you were a test client for us several years ago, 75 people or something like that. Yeah, we're 750,000 people that we're responsible for. Not 750,000 people engaged with us on a daily basis. That's the reach we have. And if.

Peter Dunn [00:25:24]:

If we can alter the outcomes for a large portion of those people, because just by the personal finance statistics in our country, we know a large group of those people or heading down a bad path. I don't say that judgmentally. That is an observation, my friend. I would love to be a part of that. It feels so good and no one has to know that I have a part of it other than me. I'm not shouting it. I love being part of that.

Craig Anderson [00:25:50]:

So when you're bringing odds with that kind of people that you're serving, your company has grown a lot. How does that get people moving in your company? How do you keep them? I mean, how much is that mission kind of front and center every day as you're doing kind of weekly standups or town halls or all those kinds of things? Does that kind of pull the team together? I'm not to say it's easy to lead that group because of that, but does it create more of a driver when it's so clear?

Peter Dunn [00:26:15]:

I work with a lot of really great people that have their own version of that story that drives them. I mean, one of my top sales people. The way he measures his performance, while we measure it based on a sales quota, he measures it based on the number of households that are represented by his sales quota. Right. And Annie talks about it proudly. And our Wednesday team stand ups, when we do shoutouts, everyone goes around and say, hey, if this person helped me this week, thanks so much for that. It's always seated in because then we were able to help this participant, as we call them, get to a better outcome. So very fortunate from a culture standpoint that we've been able to create a community of caring.

Craig Anderson [00:26:58]:

Love it. So, Pete, the last question I always have for people is, I'm going to give you a time machine. You can take a DeLorean, HG Wells, whichever one you like. Most people like that Delorean. Go back in time to young Pete in those early leadership roles. What's the one piece of advice you would give him that would have made it easier, made him more effective?

Peter Dunn [00:27:22]:

Yeah, I think it's feedback. I think it's providing people feedback by understanding a person's career aspirations, the standards for which they hold for themselves that you are serving them, you are helping them on their trajectory by giving fair feedback. That is my answer. But I don't see this definitively, as though now I'm amazing at it. It remains a priority for me and it remains a priority of improvement for me. But I do believe, again, I told you I have guilt around some of those early business relationships I had. I didn't do anything wrong, but I'm not so sure I did anything right. And then that's what sort of bothers me.

Peter Dunn [00:28:09]:

I didn't do anyone dirty, you know, and I'm a decent person, but I don't think I was a good leader that way. And so that's where I have some guilt of, like, they deserved better. And so again, I'm a chip on my shoulder sort of person that way. I'm trying to prove to the future folks that I probably should have done a better job with folks that previously had worked with.

Craig Anderson [00:28:30]:

Yeah. And I think that's true. So we don't always do. Maybe we're not always batting a thousand in our leadership, even though we were probably better than we were five years ago. I think what I'm hearing a lot from you through this is you've really developed a much higher sense of self awareness of yourself as a leader and how you present and where you're falling short and where you could do better. And that to me, is such an essential characteristic of good leadership, is just to have the awareness of how am I really doing and not just assuming we're knocking it out of the park every day.

Peter Dunn [00:28:57]:

Yeah. It's just, I think you may have said earlier it's not the loudest voice. Right. But it might be the most self aware voice, to your point. And again, I said earlier it's important to get here. My senior leadership team is so good that I would just embarrass myself beyond belief if I didn't raise to their level. And that's what I've had to do. They've really kind of forced my hand, if I'm being honest.

Craig Anderson [00:29:22]:

I love it. I love it. So, Pete, if people want to follow you or learn more about Your Money Line or maybe get some insights into the new book, what are the best ways for them to find it?

Peter Dunn [00:29:31]:

Well, Your Money Line can be found at go figure yourmoneyline.com. still has some things. The book, though, coming out, I believe in January of 2025, is called It's Not Your Fault, But It Is Your Problem. And it's about how HR leaders can understand the employee challenges, the employees challenges they face on a regular basis. And by helping them solve those challenges, they'll improve their business.

Craig Anderson [00:29:57]:

Love it. Well, Pete, thank you for coming on and sharing the story of your Executive Evolution and really appreciate it.

Peter Dunn [00:30:04]:

Thanks. Craig P. Anderson I love your Tuesday newsletter. Everybody subscribe.

Craig Anderson [00:30:08]:

Thank you. We'll drop the links for all of that in the show notes. Thanks, Pete, for such a great conversation. Lots of wisdom in your words. And I really appreciate him coming on and sharing the story with us of his Executive Evolution. As always, I like to break down my key takeaways from the interview in the crucial leadership areas of confidence, competence and calm. In the area of confidence. What I really want to touch on is when Pete talked about his growing self awareness as a leader, when he realized it wasnt about surrounding himself with people to do things for him.

Craig Anderson [00:30:40]:

It was about pulling people together towards a goal to achieve the larger mission of the company. And his job was really to clarify that vision and then get things out of the way so they could execute. And that really is leadership confidence. When you realize it's not about you and you have to get things done through other people and you can release that and become that guide to your team, that's really true leadership confidence, when you can release what's going on and trust and help build the team so they can do those things for you. In the area of competence, Pete talked about how he grew as a leader. One thing was just time and evolving and having that self awareness. But also he was very self taught, read lots of books, listened to a lot of podcasts, and they werent always leadership podcasts. Theres a lot of great lessons you can learn about leadership from fiction and from true stories, as he talked about kind of moneyball and some of those, look for those opportunities when youre watching movies to learn more about leadership and what you can take away to improve yourself as a leader.

Craig Anderson [00:31:39]:

And that will help start to build more competence for you. And in the area of calm, we touched on empathy and approaching even difficult conversations with empathy and understanding. And when he realized that that was such a great tool for those difficult conversations and performance conversations, what he talked about, he didnt really call it calm, but he was more relaxed going into those conversations. He didnt dread them as much as he did. And that is really how you start to build calm, is empathy with the team. Those problems arent difficult corrective actions all the time. They might evolve to that, but usually its just having that conversation, having that curiosity, coming into it with empathy, not accusatory frameworks. So I really appreciate that way to help you become more calm as a leader, as always, remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time.

Craig Anderson [00:32:29]:

All it takes is developing your confidence. Confidence and calm. See you next time on Executive Evolution.