"A really powerful lesson is knowing that it is okay to admit when you've made a mistake. That shows people that your ego isn’t getting in the way of you showing up as a good human.”
In this episode of Executive Evolution, Craig Anderson sits down with Susan Baroncini-Moe, Executive Coach and CEO at Baroncini-Moe Executive Coaching, about leadership grounded in empathy, self-awareness, and authenticity. Susan shares the importance of vulnerability in building team trust and explains why candid feedback, rather than anonymous reviews, strengthens teams.
Susan reflects on her early career managing her father’s medical practice and shares the leadership lessons she learned firsthand through these experiences. She also advises fostering a safe, open culture that promotes honesty, growth, and authenticity, which is essential for today’s executives.
After You Listen:
- Get your copy of Fierce Leadership by Susan Scott
- Connect with Susan Baroncini-Moe on LinkedIn
- Check out Baroncini-Moe Executive Coaching
- Connect with Craig on LinkedIn
- Subscribe to Craig’s "The Evolving Leader" newsletter
- Check out Craig’s monthly free training on holding difficult conversations
Key Takeaways:
- Develop emotional intelligence and self-awareness to inspire authentic connections
- Build a legacy of integrity and growth through honest, open communication
- Approach difficult conversations with empathy and listening first
Things to listen for:
- (00:00) Intro
- (02:26) Lightning round
- (17:46) Mastering self-awareness
- (18:29) Evolving leadership philosophy
- (19:00) The power of vulnerability
- (20:01) Handling mistakes with grace
- (20:52) The weight of leadership
- (27:30) The role of a coach
- (31:31) The pitfalls of Performance Improvement Plans
Episode Transcript
This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human.
Craig Anderson [00:00:00]:
My assistant walked into my office and said, three people have asked me today why you don't have your wedding band on. Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. As leaders, we don't always realize how much impact we we have on the teams that we lead. And really, even more so, we don't realize how much they pay attention to everything we do and everything we say. There was a time when I was leading a team and had gone through a divorce. Didn't really make a big deal out of it.
Craig Anderson [00:00:42]:
I just shared it with my direct reports. Didn't see a need to make an announcement and never did actually make an announcement, but asked my direct reports and my assistant to keep it quiet because it was my personal business. But no sooner had my divorce finalized and my wedding band was off than three people walked by my assistant's desk and asked her, what's going on? Why isn't Craig wearing his wedding ring? So be aware, leaders, that once you move into this level, people are watching everything you do, from both something as small as what's a small piece of metal on your left hand to how you act in meetings and to how you talk to other people and really just how you show up every day. Today I'm going to be interviewing Susan Baroncini-Moe. She is the president and chief coach for Susan Baroncini-Moe Coaching. And she has done a lot of work with a lot of different executives over time and brings a lot of great lessons for all of us to learn. So let's move right into today's interview. Susan, welcome to the Executive Evolution podcast.
Craig Anderson [00:01:48]:
Thanks for being on today.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:01:49]:
Oh, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Craig Anderson [00:01:51]:
I know. And we were just talking. I mean, we know each other, but we only know each other mostly this way, which is kind of fun, which is so much of my life anymore in the last five years. But it's great. I have a lot of friends this way.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:02:03]:
We are a virtual world.
Craig Anderson [00:02:05]:
It really is. Now I just need people who are my virtual friends from further away.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:02:10]:
No risk of seeing them at all, ever.
Craig Anderson [00:02:12]:
That's right. That's right. If we ever have to meet, it would be so awkward. We'll just never do it. It's. It is fun. It is very fun. So, anyway, well, welcome to the pod.
Craig Anderson [00:02:21]:
I am excited to talk to you about leadership and all the exciting things that leadership offers. So we always jump in Susan, with the lightning round, which is a lightning round only in name because it never goes as fast as a lightning round would imply. But are you ready?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:02:34]:
Yeah. I mean, let's go.
Craig Anderson [00:02:37]:
All right, absent your own books, what is the best book on leadership you have ever read?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:02:43]:
All right, I have three Fierce Leadership. This is by Susan Scott. There are some kind of radical ideas in here that I really, really dig. Leading with Noble Purpose by Lisa Earl McLeod. This is like a deep meaning in leadership book, and I think it's very inspiring. This one is Leadership Results, and the author is Sebastian Sellacrew. I really like how he weaves together the leadership journey sort of from building impact and influence and creating a legacy and lasting impact. And so these are my three.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:03:19]:
I'm not good at choosing just one.
Craig Anderson [00:03:21]:
Yeah, obviously. And also you have the benefit of ones that have never been brought up before, but kind of a little bit of a theme you said was just kind of a little, maybe offset about traditional leadership books, not kind of talk more about the journey and maybe less about the theory. Is that a fair assessment?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:03:37]:
I think there's certainly theory in all three of those, and I do like practical applications. But I think that what those three books offer are what I suspect are the future of leadership. And we spent so much time during the pandemic talking about empathy and rethinking leadership and what it means, especially in those kinds of chaotic times. So I think these three books really do connect a deeper meaning of leadership, something more substantial, not just bossing people around, telling what to do.
Craig Anderson [00:04:11]:
Yeah, and that's so interesting because I run into that in my own practice where it's just like, well, I just need you to tell me how to get them to perform better. And I'm going to tell, tell, tell. And have you ever been curious enough just to ask, which I think ultimately leads to the empathy piece. Yeah, is. Yeah, I understand what they're doing is frustrating you. What conversations have you had about what's going on to get in the way? Because otherwise you're just prescribing and it may not work because that thing is still there. I'm not saying we give them a free pass, but if we don't understand, how can we accommodate, how can we adjust? How can we find a way to get them there is part of it.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:04:45]:
And actually, I think that first book, Fierce Leadership, Susan Scott's book, she really gets into having those difficult conversations. The ones that, like, for example, in that book, she talks about not doing an anonymous 360, doing a 360 face to face. And the courage of having those conversations. And from a leadership perspective, the vulnerability of allowing that. Right. And being able to sit with that, the directness of it. It's also interesting, right? The power in vulnerability. The power in being willing to listen to your team and really hear what they're saying and receive it and respond to it appropriately.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:05:29]:
It's incredibly powerful.
Craig Anderson [00:05:30]:
Yeah, that's. You know, I do a lot of 360s and I'm always interested and somewhat amused. Well, that's not right. Okay, well, if it were right, let's just assume it were true. If it were true, what would we do? Everyone uses three 60s and everyone. Oh yeah, I'd like a 360. And then when you deny what's in the 360 is much more of a bet to tell about you as leader than. Than the follower themselves.
Craig Anderson [00:05:54]:
And it's so interesting. But boy, you'd have to be some kind of special leader to be able to do a in person360. In the sense that a teammate would be willing to speak that truth to your face.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:06:05]:
Yeah, yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:06:06]:
Even the nicest leader or most empathetic leader. I think it would be a challenge for people to speak truth. Have you ever seen one or done one like that?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:06:15]:
No, I typically use the leadership circle, which is sort of anonymous, and I do it in combination with interviews. But yeah, people usually know because there's a narrative section. They don't know when the scores, but they know who's saying stuff and they'll say it. You know, I know that this is.
Craig Anderson [00:06:33]:
That's not how we play the game. But yes, I know you know who it is.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:06:37]:
It does make me crazy. Every once in a while I come across a client and I'm like, do you want to do a 360? And they'll say, well, our company has a 360 tool that we have access to, like tell me more. And it's usually something that HR created and it's not validated. You don't know if you're measuring what you think you're measuring. It's terrible. So I wish HR departments would stop doing that. That's my fondest wish lately.
Craig Anderson [00:07:01]:
That's your Christmas wish. Christmas will be here before we know it. So that's what you get. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I think HR has a very difficult job and they're probably being told to do it cheap, so they went out and bought a cheap 360 tool.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:07:13]:
Facts.
Craig Anderson [00:07:13]:
So, yeah, no, I think you really have to understand the competencies you're trying to measure and the things that you're trying to get into and what you're really asking before they're effective.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:07:21]:
And the assessments that I think probably you and I use are validated instruments that have been created and tested and for the leadership circle, tested over thousands of leaders, hundreds of thousands of leaders. And my personality and aptitude assessment that I use, tons of validation done. So I just think if you're going to do something like that, do it right.
Craig Anderson [00:07:43]:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, next one. Maybe this will be shorter, maybe longer. Who is your leadership crush?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:07:51]:
So this is tough, I think, because in the last several years, just about every leader has some kind of controversy or scandal. And I think you have to be careful with this because I could say right now, I love this person. This person is so great. And then next week they're going to be embroiled in some weird scandal. So I'm always reluctant to do that. But I got a little lucky because my true leadership crush is the late and very great Bob Bethel. Who's Bob Bethel? You might be wondering. He is not a super famous leader, I think probably in his community.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:08:27]:
He was very well known, very well respected, and he touched many businesses in his career. He wrote a great book called Strengthen youn Business. And he was my mentor and he taught me an enormous amount about business and leadership and life. And unfortunately, he's been gone for a couple of years now. But he was an extraordinarily kind man, very generous, very gentle soul, but a fierce, fierce businessman and an exceptional leader. And he would go into a business and just be very transparent. Hey, I'm here to turn this business around. And here's what we're going to do to make that happen.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:09:02]:
If you want to get on the ship and row in the same direction with me, we're going to save this business. And if you're not interested in that, please see the HR representative by the door. And then he would just go fix it. And he would not give himself a huge salary. He would give himself a normal person salary. If he needed to empty the trash, he'd empty the trash. He was just amazing. I just loved him.
Craig Anderson [00:09:24]:
It's so interesting with this question because I get kind of two different versions, right? Oh, it's Jamie Dimon or Jack Welch or whatever. I don't think anybody says Jack Welch anymore, but you know, whatever. Or it's somebody they saw that they worked for that they had a close impact to, Right. Those stories are always more about how they treated people as people and where they taught and where they kind of mentored and grew people, which I think are probably aspirationally what a lot of leaders would like their story to be. Right. That's what you'd like your legacy to be. Your legacy can be, I built this billion dollar thing, or, you know, I did a lot of great work in a good way and touch lives in a. In a healthy way.
Craig Anderson [00:10:01]:
And people. Not to toot my own horn, but why not? I just remember getting off a call and I heard the person just say as it was hanging up, is, boy, he is just so good to me. I just love what a great guy this guy is. Right. Which he didn't mean for me to hear. He was hanging up the phone, he was saying to somebody else. But it's like you made a difference. Right.
Craig Anderson [00:10:17]:
By doing small things for people and treating them like people. Right. I know. It's insane, right? Shocking. Yeah, I know. I just treated people like people. It was crazy. But I don't think a lot of people either see themselves as leaders or understand the kind of impact they have.
Craig Anderson [00:10:32]:
Do you know what I mean? That's the challenge.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:10:34]:
Yeah. I think a lot of times leaders don't realize you're not just there to tell people what to do. You're not just there to guide people in whatever you're trying to accomplish. You're also there to develop people and to help them grow in their own careers and in their lives. And you can have a profound impact in doing that. And no one might ever really know your name in the general sense. You might not be a celebrity, but you will have had a huge impact. And you'll be leaving a legacy behind where you taught people amazing lessons that they'll then go on to teach others.
Craig Anderson [00:11:09]:
Yeah. There was somebody, Kyle Lacy, when he was on said when he got his first leadership role, his boss told me, you're now, congratulations. You're now the subject of dinner table conversation for your employees.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:11:19]:
Yes.
Craig Anderson [00:11:20]:
Which is. Right. That's hugely humbling when you realize, and maybe you don't care about that. I cared about that. I was like, oh, man, that is a big responsibility. All right, last one. This is either really easy or really hard in ten words or less. How do you define leadership?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:11:36]:
I think guiding and influencing others toward a calming goal with vision and integrity. I will say that's. That's how I would define good leadership.
Craig Anderson [00:11:46]:
Yeah.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:11:47]:
Not just leadership in general.
Craig Anderson [00:11:49]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. No. Good leadership. Yeah. I think that's true. I mean, we've all seen it, right? You don't have to work very many places to see bad leadership in action. Right.
Craig Anderson [00:11:57]:
And it's. It's kind of endemic. I think there's probably more bad leaders than there are good leaders. I think two things happen, especially in a lot of companies or businesses, is they promote high performers into leadership roles, which is probably not always the right decision, and then they just go, okay, go lead.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:12:15]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:12:16]:
And it's so much more than that. And I think the people who do that don't realize that leadership matters, too.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:12:22]:
It's a little bit like the E Miss by Michael Gerber, which he wrote for business owners, right. That you might be great at what you do, but that doesn't mean you're going to be great at owning a business doing what you do. Same thing. You might be great at what you do, but that doesn't mean you're going to be a great leader in that department or area or company. And it's a different skill set. And fortunately, most people don't just get promoted to a place where they're leading a huge amount of people at one time. They're proving themselves with a small number of people, gradually increasing the number of people that they're leading to demonstrate that competency. So at least we have some things in place, I think.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:13:01]:
But that there are far too many people who squeak by and get away with terrible leadership.
Craig Anderson [00:13:07]:
Oh, yeah. And they all have become fodder for my various blog posts, at least in my life.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:13:12]:
So beware, beware.
Craig Anderson [00:13:15]:
You know, it's funny. I will say this. There was one guy who was a leader. He wasn't my boss, but he was a leader that I had to deal with. And he was just terrible, just a jackass. Just was super arrogant and was like, well, you know, I'm too high up to talk to you. It was something he literally said to me one day. Advance forward several years, layoffs in the industry I was in.
Craig Anderson [00:13:34]:
I happened to land. I get a call from the guy, I call him back, and he says to me, he says, you know, I really appreciate your call. Most people haven't called me back. And I'm like, well, I'm not even a little bit surprised. And I don't know why you are. So at any rate, I think it comes back to bite you at some point, right? Especially if you kind of have that leadership arrogance thing. Because, hey, we all take the fall, we're all not going to sit in that high perch forever.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:14:00]:
That's true.
Craig Anderson [00:14:01]:
All right, well, speaking of high perches that we were all on in leadership, what Was your first leadership role. It can be anything you want.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:14:11]:
I think I have always kind of been a leader. I just think it's sort of my default. But my first work related leadership was managing my dad's medical practice. I started working for him when I was 13. It was kind of a tradition in my family. So when my sister turned 13, she got her ears pierced and started working in my dad's practice as a medical assistant. And same with me. And so, you know, four years after she started, she went off, you know, and did her own thing.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:14:39]:
And then I then went to work for my dad. And it was very simple stuff. This is, by the way, before osha. Okay. Um, so we were. It was totally legal. It was very simple stuff. At first I was weighing people, taking blood pressure, why are you here? You know? But as I got older, he was like, you want to give some shots? You want to learn to draw blood, you want to process some labs? I was like, yeah, this is cool.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:15:02]:
Eventually I just kept moving up and eventually I was running the whole practice when I was 20 and I wanted to transfer from school where I was to a different school, then I would have to leave. And so I had to hire the person who would be my replacement. And so I did. And I'm 20 years old. I didn't know what I was doing. I don't even remember if I knew what the laws were in terms of hiring. But basically I hired her, I trained her and I led her. And it was a very good early experience and it taught me that I'm good at leading and I like leading and probably I wanted to keep doing that.
Craig Anderson [00:15:44]:
Yeah. And you know, if you think back to it, what were the lessons? Right, because you're trying, right? You don't really know how to lead somebody. I mean, there is a sense maybe you have kind of an inclination for it. What were the things that helped you learn to do things better?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:15:58]:
In that, I think always been a work in progress or thought of myself that way. So while I was in some ways young and arrogant, I think I was willing to learn. And also, doctors are very good at what they do, but their leadership approach really can be different from a lot of other fields. And there's a reason for that. I mean, when you're a doctor, you know, if you're in the er, people have to listen to you. Like, you have to be very directive. But in a medical practice, it's a little bit different. My dad was an amazing doctor.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:16:35]:
We have many really good qualities. But again, very directive leadership. Style. And so watching how others responded and how I responded to that style, it helped me to see how valuable it is to lead differently with a little more empathy and open communication. And there were also things that helped me learn the importance of self mastery, mastery over your emotions and your reactions and things like that. So that really was a powerful early lesson in what to do and what not to do.
Craig Anderson [00:17:13]:
Yeah, no, that's great. And it's so interesting because I see that a lot of people are really good at something and then they're successful and the business grows. But it turns out the one thing they weren't necessarily good at was the day to day interactions with kind of leading a team. But it's part of it. And then that's a challenge. But then you stepped into that gap and I think that's what helps those people is when they get that person who steps into the gap. And that's where you were. So.
Craig Anderson [00:17:34]:
Yeah, and so you grew into that leadership. And I appreciate kind of the self awareness and mastery piece. I think self awareness is a crucial leadership skill that I don't think we always talk about. It sounds like you built a lot of that through this practice.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:17:46]:
I talk about it a lot.
Craig Anderson [00:17:48]:
Yeah, but it's, it's really a hard skill to master, to kind of put yourself out of yourself and see how you're actually being perceived and impacting.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:17:58]:
Yeah, it's one of those things where you really have to practice it a lot because it doesn't come very naturally to most people.
Craig Anderson [00:18:06]:
No, we all kind of are in our little bubble and we're kind of encased in our own thoughts about what we think is going on. And it's funny, you, when we were talking before, it's just like about the three 60s. Part of the reason you get that. Well, that's not right. Is because people just don't, they don't see it. Oh, I wouldn't. I never treat people like that. Except you always do.
Craig Anderson [00:18:24]:
And so it's really. We just don't see it very much. So. Okay, so now you have your coaching practice, you have your business, you have a lot of coaches working for you. Fast forward a few years from that first leadership role. How is your leadership philosophy evolved both through your coaching and also through leading a team of coaches?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:18:46]:
I think the thing that I have really learned is that, well, first you have to keep working on yourself. You just always have to be a work in progress. Your emotional intelligence, your self awareness, your ability to handle challenges with grace. You know, we were talking earlier about Vulnerability. And I think a really powerful lesson is knowing that it is okay to admit when you've made a mistake or you have fallen short as a leader. Because I think it's a kind of vulnerability that many people don't feel safe with or comfortable with. But it shapes how I lead and how I approach leadership with my clients as well. And in part, it's really connected to understanding how others see you and the impact you have on other people.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:19:33]:
So if you make a promise and you realize later you're not able to keep it, for example, then owning up to that, instead of trying to spin it or ignore it or any of those things, just owning it. Like, yeah, I know I said this was going to happen. Unfortunately, I can't make it happen. That becomes very powerful for people to see that you're honest, transparent, that your ego and pride aren't getting in the way of you showing up as a good human and as a good leader.
Craig Anderson [00:20:01]:
Yeah. And I think partly, I know we use the term vulnerability for it. That word has such meaning to it, I think in weight and pb And I think people almost like, well, I don't want to be vulnerable because that's weakness. Right. And so there is something maybe even tied to the self awareness and just speaking truth and admitting when you were wrong. Right. I mean, it is vulnerability to be able to stand up there and say I screwed up. But sometimes it's just to say there's so much more credibility than you trying to blow smoke about something blowing up that you decided just say you screwed up.
Craig Anderson [00:20:30]:
Everybody knows. I think we fall into this trap as leaders where we say, oh, no one's going to realize this is going on. Nobody's going to realize, hey, let's not talk about how sales are down because we don't want to make the staff nervous. Except the staff's not busy. They know. Right. Everybody knows what's going on. They see how you show up every day and they pay attention to you.
Craig Anderson [00:20:51]:
I don't think we realize that. Just the silliest thing is, you know, when I was leading a group, I happened to be going through a divorce and I didn't make a big deal out of it. I didn't tell anybody except my direct reports just to say, hey, there may be days when I'm gone or maybe days when I'm just a little off. But it was all finalized and I still don't want to make a big deal. But I didn't have my wedding band on. And my assistant comes in and she said, Three people have asked me today why you're not wearing your wedding ring. Right. A small thing like that.
Craig Anderson [00:21:15]:
Right. That's a pretty small thing. But they, they're watching you all the time. So if you do screw up, they pretty much know. So if nothing else, you may as well fess up. And it gives you power, it gives you strength to show that I'm not afraid. And then when people make mistakes, they know now, hey, we make mistakes and we learn. We don't make mistakes and fire.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:21:35]:
Yeah. I think that people, especially right now, especially in where we are culturally and organizationally, in organizational cultures, people are afraid to make a mistake, period, and to own it, because they are afraid it will mean I'll be next on the chopping block. And people feel, here it is again, vulnerable in their companies, in their roles. I'm not sure how many people feel safe right now. And as a result, it becomes a more charged and more fraught environment where everybody's trying to protect themselves and protect their job. I mean, it's their very livelihood. And especially when jobs are scarce or it feels like that. Yeah.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:22:21]:
I think people get less vulnerable or visibly vulnerable. People are less willing to own mistakes because they think if I tell people I made a mistake, I could lose my job. It can be scary.
Craig Anderson [00:22:33]:
I agree. But also, I think we always have had some level of that. You know, I joked about Jack Welch, right. That Jack Welch was the guru. I don't even, I don't even know if he's alive or dead anymore. But, you know, I read the books. I thought it was the thing, right? Like, whack the bottom 10%, that's how you succeed. And the next better 10% better be put on notice.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:22:50]:
Get rid of them.
Craig Anderson [00:22:51]:
Yeah. And. But that was like the whole thing, right? So we always had this kind of low key nervousness that I'm, boy, I'm only as good as, you know, that was even the thing, Right. I'm only as good as what I just did. And so I think we've always kind of created that. And how do you balance saying, okay, that's not what it is. I want to know about mistakes. I want to have that level of vulnerability for my team or trust where they could say, hey, I made a mistake.
Craig Anderson [00:23:14]:
How can I help fix it? Or whatever. How do we build that in? Is it just by being vulnerable ourselves or how do we build that into our culture? Because we can say, hey, it's okay to make mistakes. But do they believe us?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:23:27]:
I think it's in the handling of the mistake, it's not just I made a mistake. It's. And here's what we're doing differently. And here are the lessons learned in that mistake. Right. So if we lost money as a result of the mistake, here's how we're making it back. As an executive, I don't think you can come in well and a CEO, because you're reporting to your board in some cases. So whoever you are, if you have people to report to that are going to make decisions about your employment, the smart move, the political move is to accompany your.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:24:00]:
I made a mistake with. And here are the lessons learned and here's what we're doing about it. Because if you don't come in with a solution, you're just, yeah, I screwed up. It's not going to cut it. It has to have a higher level response.
Craig Anderson [00:24:12]:
Yeah. And then I think is a thing that we don't do very well is kind of analyze the failures, figure out what we did wrong. What got us to this point. Like the failure was the final point. But what were the three things that got us to this point? Where did we make the mistake? And assumption. Where did we go wrong here? Where do we go wrong here? And we can learn from it. Now, if you make the same mistake five times. Yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:24:33]:
You're probably in the bottom 10%. Yeah. We got a problem, then we got a problem.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:24:37]:
Learn from those mistakes.
Craig Anderson [00:24:39]:
Yeah. Well. And I think sometimes it's even. And I've run into this where the leader said something that was maybe offhanded or casual. People took it as gospel and acted on it and then it blows up. Well, who ultimately has the fault? But it's self awareness. Right. Do you realize how important your words are when you're a boss? When you're.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:25:00]:
Yeah. Leaders cannot be casual or unaware. You can't just say things. You have to be aware of what you're saying at all times.
Craig Anderson [00:25:08]:
I don't know a leader like this, but if you're naturally sarcastic, it can be a real problem. You got to really watch yourself. I've heard.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:25:15]:
Why do I, why do I feel like accused right now?
Craig Anderson [00:25:19]:
Oh, no, me. I'm talking about me.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:25:21]:
This is why we're friends.
Craig Anderson [00:25:23]:
Yeah, I know, right? I was. Yeah. But it's. You don't realize it. Right. People will just like you, just say something and people. Oh, well, Craig said, you know, if anybody, you know, leaves the toilet door open one more time, he's going to fire the whole staff. So.
Craig Anderson [00:25:35]:
Or whatever it is. Right. It's the stupidest Things. It's just fascinating to me how much we have to think about what we're doing as leaders all the time. And it's really so much more than I think a lot of people realize. And if they go into it and don't ultimately start to feel that weight of it, they don't get the results they hope out for because they're just not lining up. You have to really think all the time about how I'm gonna position this. You can't wing it as much as you might want to.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:26:00]:
I think that's a, that in inherently is a deep challenge, especially with people who maybe have gotten where they are because they're good at the game, they're good at talking. And so as a leader, they may not realize the power in what they're saying and the importance in what they're saying. And they'll just say off the cuff things and then go, wait, why? Why? Who cares? You know, well, everyone cares. And so you must be measured in what you're saying and thoughtful because people will take it as very important. And this is the other piece is that as leaders, sometimes we don't feel, we just feel like people, right? Like, I think most of my clients would say this, like, I'm just a person, I'm just doing my job, whatever. Yeah, yeah, I'm leading, but I'm just a human. And may not always recognize the depth and the visibility. They might feel it in a meeting, but you know, if they're just sitting around, they may not recognize it fully.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:26:57]:
And so it can be hard when you're not realizing you are on all the time. When you're in front of anyone, you're on. And I think that's part of what makes leadership lonely. Because if you're on all the time, even if you're an authentic leader, because you are having to be measured in your responses and careful and thoughtful about what you're saying, you may not be fully yourself in those moments. And so it can feel very lonely because you're not going to be able to express all of your thoughts to everyone, possibly not even your leadership team. And I think that is where people like you and I are valuable for leaders because we come alongside the leaders. And half the work I do is I'm kind of a consigliere, non criminal. But I do help with those strategic decisions.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:27:48]:
And we talk through things without the artifice of anything. Where I'm going to take this, what you say is gospel. No, I'm your coach, so you can say anything you Want to me, we're in a judgment free space, a safe space where nothing that you're going to say is going to get any further. And we will talk through all of it very openly and all the issues without worrying about the effect of what we're talking about, as in like nobody else is hearing it. So it's very safe.
Craig Anderson [00:28:19]:
Yeah, well, in many ways, right. We're the one person in your life who doesn't have an agenda. That's not your success. You know, hey, you're paying me to keep you honest and you're paying me to help you become more self aware and more insightful. And that's my only goal aside from getting paid. But everybody else has got something. Right. And not necessarily nefariously, but everybody who shows up in your world is bringing their point of view, their agenda, whatever it is, because everybody's thinking about themselves.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:28:48]:
Yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:28:48]:
So you have to be thinking about, you know, where that coach brings value is that's not my game. I'm just here to help you be better. And there's a lot of value in that. If you don't have that in your.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:29:01]:
Life, that's absolutely true. Sometimes leaders who haven't had coaches underestimate the value of that. Open communication, being able to say the things you can't say when you're talking to your colleagues. I have clients who will talk to me very openly about decisions. And it is decidedly not a woke conversation. There has to be a space where people can say the things you can't say anywhere else because the things we're talking about are very real issues that need to be addressed but can't be done so publicly. And so they need a space where that kind of conversation can be okay and they won't be judged or judged harshly for whatever they want to say. And I don't always agree with the things they're saying.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:29:51]:
And if it is a leadership issue or a legal one, then I'm going to say, oh, right, so you kind of can't do that. Or hey, let's look at this from a leadership lens. How does this look? If you're someone who works for you, how do you receive this? How does that feel to you? Right. And just offering that different perspectives and also kind of. Yeah. Keeping them accountable.
Craig Anderson [00:30:17]:
I know, it's great.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:30:19]:
I love our job.
Craig Anderson [00:30:21]:
I do too. And you know, it's funny because one of the things I love the most is when somebody is paying me themselves for coaching because then they're invested and they really want it and they're Doing it because I want to be better. The ones who's like, oh, my company's paying for. It's like, are you invested in this? Right. That's the thing. You really have to find out. Are you just doing it because I was told to show up and take this seriously?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:30:45]:
Yeah. You know, I had a corporate client once who did not have me meet any of the employees I was about to coach. They just said, you're meeting with Susan. She will schedule you. And like, my team reached out, scheduled them for appointments, and then I was like, hi, how do you feel about this? And, like, I don't know you. I don't know how to share with you. And fortunately, in most cases, I'm really good at building rapport. And people are often telling me, like, I can't believe I'm telling you these things.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:31:14]:
Great. But there were some people who were not bought into coaching at all. And ultimately they wasted that investment because to them, what did they care? They weren't paying for it. It wasn't out of their pocket. So I think you got to get buy in for coaching if you're going to have your people do it.
Craig Anderson [00:31:29]:
Yeah. And get people who want to grow. And by the way, do not send people to me who are on a pip.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:31:34]:
Oh, God. Pips are big lies.
Craig Anderson [00:31:37]:
And nobody who is being coached because of a pip is going to take your coaching to heart.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:31:43]:
Have you ever successfully seen someone leave a pip and stay in their job?
Craig Anderson [00:31:47]:
Oh, no, no.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:31:48]:
It's a big lie.
Craig Anderson [00:31:50]:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's like a process. And ultimately I just go back to, you know, just fire them because either you're not going to fix them or you're really the problem because you let them do bad things, and now it's just become untenable and it's your fault. So ultimately, maybe you should hire me and don't hire me to go coach this PIP person.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:32:11]:
You know what I think is tragic about the PIP is that it is such a damaging and demoralizing process for the employee. I actively advocate against them. I know they have reasons for doing them, but I am very opposed because I have had clients who have come to me after a pip, and I see the devastation because they believe the lie. They're, oh, we're putting on a performance improvement plan which inherently suggests, yeah, but they don't know there's a wink there. So they think, okay, I'm gonna do these things. I'm gonna work really hard. I'm gonna keep trying, and I will conquer this. Except they don't know, like, there is no conquering this.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:32:52]:
This is you getting fired. So you need to actually start looking for a job. And by the time they get to the point where it's been 90 days or whatever, and the company and the HR person or the boss or whoever is like, yeah, you didn't really make this work. And we just didn't see the improvement we were hoping to. So we're going to let you go. Well, now you've gone through 90 days of thinking you're not good enough, thinking you're trying so hard, and it's still not good enough. Now you have to go out and do job interviews and sell yourself. It's dehumanizing.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:33:24]:
I'm very opposed. I hate it.
Craig Anderson [00:33:26]:
Well, and we'll just set aside for time, maybe for another podcast episode of how the fact that the leader didn't actually do the intercessory work up front.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:33:35]:
Yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:33:36]:
That led to the untenability. That led to the pip.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:33:38]:
Yeah.
Craig Anderson [00:33:39]:
So where we come round robin to the worst marketing message in the world, your employees not performing is probably your fault.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:33:46]:
Yeah. It's like a swifty thing. You're the problem. It's you.
Craig Anderson [00:33:50]:
That's right. Yes.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:33:51]:
Let me get you a swifty. But I've been using that like crazy lately.
Craig Anderson [00:33:54]:
That's a good one. I like it. All right, well, Susan, if people want to follow you, get in touch with you, what are the best ways for them to do that?
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:34:03]:
Well, I am, of course, obviously on LinkedIn and my website is my name susanbaroncinimoe.com whether you use the hyphen or not, you'll find me. And on most social media platforms, I'm ubmo.
Craig Anderson [00:34:18]:
All right, very good. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing the story of your Executive Evolution and a lot of other great insights today. Susan, I appreciate it.
Susan Baroncini-Moe [00:34:25]:
Thanks for having me.
Craig Anderson [00:34:30]:
I really appreciate all the insights and just the great conversation I had with Susan. She is such a great interview, and I've known her for years. We've talked on and off over time and really appreciated her honesty and her insights today. As always, I like to give you what I think are the key highlights of the interview. I'll focus my comments into the three key leadership areas of confidence, competence, and calm. In the area of confidence, Susan emphasized the importance of leaders showing up authentically by admitting mistakes and taking ownership of them. She pointed out the importance of being transparent about errors. And that takes a lot of confidence for you to stand up in front of your team.
Craig Anderson [00:35:08]:
And admit that you made a mistake. But it also shows how much confidence you have in your leadership and belief in your team. In the area of competence, we discussed how essential self awareness is to effective leadership. Susan pointed out that leaders need to practice self reflection all the time to understand how their actions impact others. This includes recognizing the influence of even the most casual remarks. So we really need to be self aware as leaders, and that's a key competence that, you know, we don't really talk about enough when we talk about leadership. And then finally, in the area of leadership calm, she talked about how leaders really carry the weight of being on all the time. When we're in front of our teams, we are always on.
Craig Anderson [00:35:49]:
And she believes that effective leaders master emotional regulation and creating a calm presence even in challenging situations. This approach gives the team stability. When they see you being calm, they're calm. Doesn't mean you don't admit the challenges that are in front of us, but we really come back to they are going to behave in much the way that we behave. I really appreciate Susan jumping on and sharing the story of what she's learned by helping executives through their evolutions. Now, as always, keep in mind you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time. All it takes is developing your leadership confidence, competence and calm. See you next time on Executive Evolution.