In this episode, Craig P. Anderson speaks with Dr. Lani Jones, Owner and Founder of HBL Advisory Group, about the mindset shifts leaders must make when stepping into positions of influence, regardless of whether they hold the title. Dr. Jones reflects on her early leadership experience training interpreters in a clinical setting, where she learned to own her expertise and communicate with clarity and confidence. She and Craig explore how impostor syndrome can be reframed as a sign of growth, why feedback must be timely and constructive, and how leadership is as much about serving others as it is about direction and decision-making.
After You Listen:
Things to listen for:
(00:00) Intro
(00:36) The importance of timely feedback
(02:17) Discussing 'Necessary Endings' by Dr. Henry Cloud
(06:09) Pursuing your leadership crush
(10:28) Keeping the human touch as a leader
(11:21) Early leadership role reflections
(25:55) A nuanced take on imposter syndrome
(32:36) A better way to receive feedback
Episode Transcript
This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human.
[00:00:00] Craig P. Anderson: It was a beautiful day in San Diego, and I was walking into a conference early in the morning with my boss, who I really didn't know that well, I was probably still in my first year of employment, and he turned to me and he said, Craig, remember about six months ago when we were in that person's office and you did this thing?
[00:00:16] Craig P. Anderson: I really questioned your ethics in that moment, and I really wanna know you're never gonna do something like that again. Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to, you know, there's a lot to be said for giving feedback.
[00:00:39] Craig P. Anderson: I think it's really important to give our employees feedback, but what's even more important is to give our feedback positive and negative in the moment. The mistake my boss made there was not in providing me with feedback about something he was concerned about with my performance. The mistake was waiting six months to do it.
[00:00:57] Craig P. Anderson: In my head, I'm saying to myself, well, I said a lot to myself in that moment, but what I will say for now is that he held on for six months that he thought one of his employees was an unethical opportunist. And that really upset me because, you know, I had come into this organization, the guy who hired me got fired and I started reporting to this guy and he just kind of dropped this scut on me six months after it happened.
[00:01:22] Craig P. Anderson: You know, in some ways he carried the weight of that for six months, but it was really unfair to me. So one of the things that is really important for us in giving feedback is to make sure it happens quickly, and that's just one of the points that comes up today in my interview with Dr. Lani Jones.
[00:01:39] Craig P. Anderson: She's the owner and founder of HBL Advisory Group. She's a coach like myself. We've known each other for a few years and she's got some great lessons. So let's jump right in to share the story of her executive evolution. Well, Lani, welcome to the Executive Evolution podcast. I'm so glad you could be here today.
[00:01:55] Dr. Lani Jones: Hey, Craig, thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.
[00:01:58] Craig P. Anderson: Oh, so am I. So am I. It's always fun to connect with people and go through this podcast. So we will dive in. Are you ready for the lightning round? I am. I am very excited for this lightning round. All right, let's jump right in. All right, quick one.
[00:02:12] Craig P. Anderson: Number one, what is the best leadership book you have ever read?
[00:02:18] Dr. Lani Jones: All right. I don't know if this falls under ever, 'cause there's a lot of really great books out there. Sure. But I'd say one at the top of my list right now is called Necessary Endings by Dr. Henry Cloud.
[00:02:29] Craig P. Anderson: I am in the middle of reading that book right now.
[00:02:32] Craig P. Anderson: No
[00:02:32] Dr. Lani Jones: way. That's a good book.
[00:02:33] Craig P. Anderson: Yes, I'm It is. I'm like halfway through it. Go check out my Good Reads. I'm like halfway through it. Yeah. What do you like about it? What do you think? What jumps out for you?
[00:02:42] Dr. Lani Jones: So one doc, Dr. Cloud is a clinical psychologist in the leadership space, much like myself and so. With that book of, so oftentimes we talk about go do X, Y, and Z.
[00:02:54] Dr. Lani Jones: It's all about the more of what I need to start, need to keep doing, where this kind of flips it on its head and it's like, no, actually, what do you need to stop doing? Like what do you need to say? The good, the hard goodbyes to. Be it an employee, be it a project, especially on projects. That whole sunk cost in a business is real of our time, our resources, our finances.
[00:03:16] Dr. Lani Jones: We just put a hundred thousand into this, like, we gotta keep going, but then when do you finally need to say no? We need to step away. That's actually the harder thing.
[00:03:26] Craig P. Anderson: It is. And I think there's two is just kind of the mental cost, right? There's obviously all the financial costs, but some of these things just suck you dry mentally.
[00:03:35] Craig P. Anderson: And I love the idea of the book and it wasn't like revelatory to me, but it's just reinforcing to me that, you know, it's okay to say, gosh, you know, we tried. And this is sucking too much resource, be it mental, physical, financial, whatever those are. And then we just have to kind of say enough. And so I love that the book kind of gives you permission for that.
[00:03:58] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah. It just kind of brings back up to the front of the mind. Like you, you know, these things, but then it's like, oh yeah. Like I need to be doing these things.
[00:04:09] Craig P. Anderson: Oh, yeah. And, and with people you're talking to kind of in your work. How much do you see people needing to be reminded of that?
[00:04:19] Dr. Lani Jones: I think quite frequently because it's just the natural go-to is the doing.
[00:04:24] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Dr. Lani Jones: And then it's the endings that are actually hard. And I also too think just like this is like the 30,000 foot like cultural view on this, but we really don't talk about how to leave or end things Well. And so if someone's generally leaving a job or leaving a position, or especially if they're at like what.
[00:04:44] Dr. Lani Jones: People consider the peak of their career or at the top, they're like, you're leaving now, or You're selling this business now. Or, why are you walking away? Or you're leaving so much on the table versus the, just because we're walking away doesn't mean that's a bad thing. And so I think we really need to change that narrative of walking away can be a positive.
[00:05:06] Dr. Lani Jones: It's not necessarily a negative association.
[00:05:10] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, and I think too, sometimes we have to think about, you know. As we're going through, like you're in a leadership role in an organization, there may be you take it as far as you can take it, and one of my favorite quotes is from one of the Nolan Batman movies where it's like you, you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.
[00:05:28] Craig P. Anderson: And I see a lot of leaders coming up through my career who became the villain because they took it to here and then it needed to go here, but it wasn't something they wanted to do or had the skillset to do. Or were encouraged to do by board or board of directors or whatever, and then it just starts grading on everybody and you would've been better to just leave in your moment.
[00:05:51] Dr. Lani Jones: Oh my gosh. That Batman quote is so perfect for that. Like, I'm gonna start using that, that, that, that was brilliant. Yes.
[00:05:59] Craig P. Anderson: Oh, it's my, it's probably one of my favorite all time quotes that I use a lot. So. Cool. That's great. Alright, well, and you can't say Batman to this one now. Okay. Who is your leadership crush?
[00:06:09] Dr. Lani Jones: Once again have multiples, but one of them I'd say is Liz Fork and Bohannon. And so if your listeners aren't familiar with her, she was the original founder, CEO of Seiko Designs, which. Was based out of Uganda a few years ago. They merged with Noonday Collective. But what I really respect about Liz and her work is she is very much, how do we use capitalism for good and how do we use it to be impactful in our spheres of influence?
[00:06:39] Dr. Lani Jones: How do we set up sustainability, community authenticity? And so just as she's led her own businesses, been a founder, I really respect the manner in which she's doing it.
[00:06:51] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. And it's such an interesting thing because we do have, kind of, capitalism gets a bad rap, but I sometimes it's the human element that we kinda let fall out of things that we realize there's humans behind these decisions, whether that's laying people off or how we hire or how we treat our customers.
[00:07:10] Craig P. Anderson: There's something to be said. I mean, look, there's nothing nice about laying people off. For the most part, however, you can treat them well when you do it right. And I see so many leaders who do a tear that's, you know, I'll never forget the person who's like, just walks in the room, drops the bomb and leaves as everybody sits there and has to process it.
[00:07:28] Craig P. Anderson: And that was just easy for you, man. And so it's, there's a humanity, el human element to it that I think we, that can really bring a lot of that forth if we really start to think about it.
[00:07:38] Dr. Lani Jones: And here's a little tidbit of life advice for your listeners. If your secret crush puts out on social media somewhere, Hey, if you've been following me and you wanna be friends in real life, meet me in this foreign country.
[00:07:50] Dr. Lani Jones: Just say yes to it. Don't overthink it. Don't talk yourself out of it. Just do it. 'cause I did that with Liz about a year ago. Showed up in Guatemala with her. Had no idea what I was doing or why I was there. And it, it was a great yes. So.
[00:08:05] Craig P. Anderson: Whoa, that's in. So, all right, so since you went there, what was like the big impactful takeaway from that?
[00:08:13] Craig P. Anderson: Like what was like the real person behind the author?
[00:08:16] Dr. Lani Jones: So there's that old adage of like, don't meet your heroes 'cause you'll be disappointed. Fortunately with Liz, it was not a disappointment. What you see in the public is what you get privately, and she was just very generous with her expertise and not just boldness and saying, yes.
[00:08:34] Dr. Lani Jones: Led to a lot of other yeses, and so it, it was a, it was a good leap.
[00:08:39] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. You, because I know you a, a bit outside the podcast and I know you are a person who's willing to take those leaps and it seems like they pay off like left and right every time you do it.
[00:08:49] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah. And some of it is a numbers game.
[00:08:51] Dr. Lani Jones: Sometimes you fall hard and you fall flat and then you're like, oops, that didn't actually work out. But the no risks, no reward really does hold true. And so, yeah, you, if you want the big things, you gotta be willing to take the. Big risks.
[00:09:06] Craig P. Anderson: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. All right. Last question. In 10 words or less, how do you define leadership
[00:09:14] Dr. Lani Jones: influence with purpose and direction and service to others?
[00:09:18] Craig P. Anderson: I love it. Influence with purpose and direction and service to others. How does that show up? Do you see in a lot of leaders, as you think about like your leadership crush or, or some of the things you see out there, how do you see people exemplifying that in their leadership? I.
[00:09:34] Dr. Lani Jones: I think it goes back to that broader picture of regardless of like what industry you're in, or if you're at mid-management level and you have a team under you or you're at the CEO at the top, like really how are you serving others like your employees do impact the bottom line.
[00:09:52] Dr. Lani Jones: And so it's not just all this corporate fluff of work life balance or you know, give them some. Party and think of for their good work one time every year, but really, why are you showing up? Are you giving them clarity or not being a micromanager, but are you setting the clear expectations? Is their work purposeful?
[00:10:14] Dr. Lani Jones: Because we know just that whole concept of someone feeling purposeful in their work is gonna impact their productivity, is gonna impact how they show up, how long they stay with a company. And so how are you serving at whatever level of leadership you're in? I.
[00:10:28] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. It kind of goes back to what you were talking about before about just the humanity and the capitalism, right?
[00:10:33] Craig P. Anderson: Is, you know, there's the, you know, your company will get F enough that you don't know everybody's names, but it doesn't mean you can't interact with people as you run into 'em. It doesn't mean you can't do everything you can to educate them on what's going on with the business and help them see why their job's important.
[00:10:47] Craig P. Anderson: And sometimes I think we lose that, especially as businesses really scale. And, you know, I now, I can't touch everybody. How do I, how do I continue to do that? And that's something I see a lot with. People I work with kind of in the, you know, small business, one to 2 million that are trying to get to five.
[00:11:03] Craig P. Anderson: Right? That's tough because the stuff that made you successful if you knew everything that was going on doesn't work as you scale. So how do you keep that human touch? How do you build systems so you can still have it? And and still feel like you're influencing people, even if it's indirectly. All right, so let's go back into your past.
[00:11:21] Craig P. Anderson: We don't have to do deep darn past. Let's just go back. As far back as you can think is relevant to your first leadership role. When was the first time you saw yourself leading a team, a group, a business?
[00:11:32] Dr. Lani Jones: So doing a doctorate. I spent about the first decade of my adulthood in school, and so didn't get my first.
[00:11:39] Dr. Lani Jones: Real grownup job to like late twenties, so to speak, but found myself in corporate healthcare. I was in a hospital setting, also clinical faculty in the school of medicine, and so plenty of senior, way more experienced experts in their field around me, and one of my first tasks. I kind of started undertaking was training up our interpreters.
[00:12:05] Dr. Lani Jones: So in the clinical psych realm, a lot of our appointments were like multiple hours long. Some of them were full days, so a family could be there anywhere from like three to eight hours. And so we had a need of our interpreters to be very specific, very in depth. There was information that we were trying to get.
[00:12:25] Dr. Lani Jones: There were cultural barriers, and so it came to light. Like if we actually train them up in our knowledge and like what our end goal is, like it's gonna go better for everyone. And so somehow I found myself kind of in the hot seat leading this. And so there was definitely a lot of insecurity, like, oh, I'm just junior faculty, and what do I know?
[00:12:46] Dr. Lani Jones: And they've been here for 20 years, and shouldn't I just defer to them based on timing alone and things like that. And so I'd say two of my big takeaways I really learned from that one is just claiming your agency because. I was a junior faculty. I didn't have all the titles at that time, but I did have a level of expertise.
[00:13:08] Dr. Lani Jones: I did have an experience that had got me in that job and got me that position. And I see this so often with leaders, even some founders, sometimes I just have to remind 'em like, you're the founder and CEO, like if this is not going in the direction you want, like you can turn the ship here. And they're kinda like.
[00:13:26] Dr. Lani Jones: Oh, I can can't. I like, I, I feel like that is something a lot of leaders need at some point. Like outside the obvious responsibility or level of influence. They do have just that reminder of you do have agency here. And so that's one of those themes I've taken with me at each area of, okay, we're always gonna have those business things that feel so out of our control or there's external forces, but.
[00:13:55] Dr. Lani Jones: Oftentimes, more times than not, we do have more agency in a situation than we're actually acknowledging.
[00:14:02] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And so, boy, so much to unpack in that is one is kind of in that junior faculty role, right? You may not have title authority, but you know, leadership isn't necessarily just because you have a title or a paycheck.
[00:14:14] Craig P. Anderson: You know, I, I can remember it. There's a really weird time. When I was an it, I was an interim IT director, which that should never. Be a role that I do because I'm just like, ah, turn it off, turn it on. Anyway. We had brought a consultant in who could help me with them because it was just that I didn't necessarily understand everything.
[00:14:31] Craig P. Anderson: And one of the guys was sitting there one day and he goes, oh, I'm trying to get all these policies about this, this, and this done. And I don't have a, because I have this lousy title, I can't get anything done. And the consultant, this guy named Nick, who's a great guy, he just lights into this guy and he's just like, that is bs.
[00:14:47] Craig P. Anderson: You don't have to have a title to lead. You can be influencing this organization and not your title's not what's wrong, it's your effort. That's wrong. And which was pretty exciting. Uh, but I don't think we have to necessarily be that intense about it. But the reality is, right, leadership can happen at all levels of the organization by how you show up every day and how you, like you said in your definition, how we influence the people around us.
[00:15:12] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah. And I think oftentimes. We're waiting for the permission. We're waiting for permission to lead without the title. And a lot of that can stem, you know, getting a little psyche here, you know, in those limiting beliefs or the scripture telling yourself of, oh, I don't wanna overstep my bounds, or I don't wanna do too much of this, or come across in this way.
[00:15:36] Dr. Lani Jones: But yet, at the end of the day, that usually with our bosses of just taking ownership, leading without the title speaks a lot more.
[00:15:44] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And then, you know, the other thing you said that I think is really interesting, and I see this a lot myself, and maybe you see this as you said, right?
[00:15:52] Craig P. Anderson: Is these people who own the businesses or the CEOs and they forget that they can actually tell everybody you know what to do. And I think especially when you're at the top, right, it's a lot of, it's just directional stuff, right? And casting that vision. And sometimes you have to pivot the vision to where we're going.
[00:16:10] Craig P. Anderson: And sometimes you forget it. I think mistakes, the mistake I think leaders make is, well, I don't know what they're doing all day, so I can't tell 'em what to do. Well, nobody expects you to know what everybody does all day, but you can set the vision in the direction, and that's a hundred percent in your purview.
[00:16:23] Craig P. Anderson: But it gets into like the sunk costs. Well, you know, we were talking about before, well, I've already sunk into this. I can't stop. And that's not true. You can really move the organization forward and bring 'em along with you.
[00:16:35] Dr. Lani Jones: I think some of that I see with founders just get so overwhelmed if culture isn't in a good spot.
[00:16:41] Dr. Lani Jones: And so it just feels like, where do I even start with this? How can I even do this? And so it's like, it's too overwhelming. I can't even like change the ship type of thing. Yeah.
[00:16:52] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And I wonder in your work with founders and given kinda your background. You know, what are the things that I always see leadership as kind of this really, it's a burden.
[00:17:04] Craig P. Anderson: It's great. There's lots of great things, right? But it can weigh a lot. And when you're making decisions like that, as the business grows and you realize kind of, Hey, this decision I'm gonna make. Influences the livelihoods of 20 people or 30 people, or a hundred people, or you know, gosh, when I was at Chase, I thought of Jamie Diamond.
[00:17:22] Craig P. Anderson: How do you rest at night when you know 150,000 people's jobs rely on your decisions? How does that weight show up a lot? Do you see in your clients? Like where does that kind of start to hit people?
[00:17:35] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah, I think it's a whole spectrum. Some have been in business for. Too long and haven't exited and have, have lost that touch, have gotten so caught up in the numbers game.
[00:17:45] Dr. Lani Jones: They've lost the human components. And then, yeah, we have the far other side then of it's just suffocating literally to them. And they are not sleepy. They are not eating because they have ulcers and like all the extremes of it. And so. It goes back to, I think, really that healthy view of agency of both internal and external control because there there's always gonna be that tension of the two of you can do everything and your power to set your team up for success, to set your business up for success, and then a global pandemic hits of the blue or supply chain issues or natural disasters, like all these things.
[00:18:26] Dr. Lani Jones: And so. Not having. I think also too, and we saw this a lot of COVID, was that toxic positivity like that is just not helpful to people of not acknowledging the heart of the moment. But I really think it goes back to that tension piece of how do we hold the tension of both? What can I control? How can I show up for my team, how can I serve them well versus there's always gonna be these unknowns out there.
[00:18:51] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And I think one of the things in those kind of extreme circumstances too, there's this desire for action in crisis, right? That I have to do this big thing. And there's something you were talking about earlier, I think about this too. As businesses grow, you build all these kind of cultural things and you have to really ask yourself, are these really sustainable over time and at scale?
[00:19:10] Craig P. Anderson: And I would think I've seen a lot as we've gone through COVID and some of these other disasters, these leaders who come out and they make these big pronouncements. 'cause it feels good in the moment. And then two years later, you're kind of burdened with this thing. So as along with kind of that internal and external locus of control, some of that locus of control internally is realizing I have to really think through what I'm talking about here, even though I'm in this urgent moment.
[00:19:35] Craig P. Anderson: How do I need to maybe not react strongly to that and instead just be the sustaining influence of we're gonna, okay, we're evaluating all this, we're taking a look at it. We're plugging every hole we can right now, but the long-term decisions that have to be made. With interest in time and thought we can't just go and I think we have this cultural thing that's just like, no success is go, go, go.
[00:19:58] Craig P. Anderson: And we have all this pressure to go, but we don't always have to go fast, I don't think. I mean, maybe you see it differently, but that's, I'm not sure that's necessary all the time.
[00:20:06] Dr. Lani Jones: Sometimes you need to go fast. Sometimes you need to put the brakes on. One company I've worked with that came to mind when you were saying all that was, I worked with a couple execs and.
[00:20:18] Dr. Lani Jones: One of their topics, ex in a very public realm, had put out a statement of, Hey, yeah, things were tough initially with this reorg, but we got going and here we are, and we're thriving and we're doing great. Well, that was not the mood of the entire team behind the scenes. And so the fact that you have your outward facing leaders saying how great everything is now, and most of your team is totally feeling taxed and overburdened and just totally burnt out, and everyone searching for other jobs like.
[00:20:53] Dr. Lani Jones: That in and of itself was damaging, and so that just, if you don't have the answers, sometimes that literally can be as powerful of saying to your team of. I don't have the answers now. We're gonna figure it out. And I know everyone wants confidence in their leader and they want the poise. And they want the control.
[00:21:11] Dr. Lani Jones: But there's still a way to say that though, to connect with a humanist and be in community of who you are leading, regardless of how big of that is in your company.
[00:21:21] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. I think something that happens with that toxic positivity is you feel like, oh, I gotta keep everybody going and motivate everybody.
[00:21:29] Craig P. Anderson: But sometimes it, as you were saying, right, when you're doing that. It comes across as you don't realize what everybody's trudging through right now. And if you don't acknowledge the very real difficulties, if you think of like the Stockdale paradox, you know the guys who didn't make it outta that POW camp, were the ones who were relentlessly positive.
[00:21:48] Craig P. Anderson: It's gonna happen tomorrow. We're gonna get out the next day, we're gonna, and you know, it's exhausting versus I believe this will end positively for us. However, it's really hard right now, and we need to deal with what we're dealing with with this difficulty. And not just blow a bunch of people smoke that everything's great.
[00:22:06] Craig P. Anderson: And that's hard. 'cause I think your gut tells you, oh, I gotta keep everybody going and motivate 'em.
[00:22:10] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah. And so holding the space, so to speak, for that tension for the hardness because it's not an either or. It's a both and. And so how do I just show up and acknowledge, wow, this is really hard. Wow, we don't have all the answers here.
[00:22:26] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. So going back to that first leadership role you had, you know, so you're in there, you're junior, you're really leaning hard into influence 'cause you don't have title and authority. How did that all kind of play out? What did you learn through that process?
[00:22:42] Dr. Lani Jones: I'd say agency is as well as communication.
[00:22:45] Dr. Lani Jones: Those were the two big learning lessons. And I think communication especially is like. A lifelong learning of a leader because the rooms you're speaking to, who you're speaking to, cultural considerations, even generationally now, how we're seeing that play out in the workforce really shapes it. And so definitely I.
[00:23:05] Dr. Lani Jones: Not taking enough ownership in the beginning was hard and not seeing results and like, why aren't people responding? Why? Why aren't we getting the ball rolling? Why aren't things getting done? Because I was too hesitant and I was holding back in that realm too. Or I thought I was communicating clearly. I was totally not, like, they weren't privy to the entire conversations that were going on in my head and then what I was, you know, sharing in emails or whatever other methods of communication.
[00:23:36] Dr. Lani Jones: And so there was a lot of starting and stopping. Eventually we got, we were okay, we got the ball rolling, but things could have gone better, more smoothly in the beginning if. I had showed up with a little more confidence, a little more structure, a little more ownership of here's where we're going because they needed a leader, but I, I was a little too hesitant to lead in that realm.
[00:24:01] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. What do you think was holding you back? Was it the title thing? Was it the age thing? What was kind of getting in your way of fully leaning in?
[00:24:10] Dr. Lani Jones: I think a little bit was the title of the age, deferring too much to supposed experts around me type of thing, and not just claiming, okay, like I am training these individuals.
[00:24:21] Dr. Lani Jones: I am the one who has the experts. They're experts in their field. They're experts in mind. I'd say that is another theme for my leadership of I'm too quick to defer to others or to their perceived expertise versus just claiming my own. Continuing to move forward with that.
[00:24:40] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And, and what finally pushed you through to that, in that experience?
[00:24:43] Craig P. Anderson: Like what kind of got you over that hump where you're like, no, I can communicate more effectively, I can make these decisions. What really changed in you that got you able to do that?
[00:24:52] Dr. Lani Jones: It was actually a rather challenging conversation with one of my bosses because in, in the whole corporate, like there's multiple bosses and levels and your bosses, bosses, and it was on a different topic, but at one point she just stopped and looked at me.
[00:25:05] Dr. Lani Jones: She's like. You have a doctorate, you have a level of expertise you need to start owning it. And it was just pretty crystal clear cut and dry. Like, I don't wanna have this conversation again. I don't want you to be in my office, so go figure it out.
[00:25:19] Craig P. Anderson: That's great though. I mean, it was, I mean, how, how did that feel in the moment?
[00:25:22] Craig P. Anderson: Do you remember?
[00:25:24] Dr. Lani Jones: Oh, I, I was like probably shrinking back and was like, oh no, I'm in trouble and I didn't do my job well and being a perfectionist and type A I was like, man, I screwed up. And, but no, it was really just an uncomfortable learning opportunity. But looking back, I'm grateful for it now and it stood with me and it was definitely a growth time.
[00:25:44] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, that's really a lot of times in leadership that we evolve. As we evolve. It's sometimes it's that tough. Hard conversation. I dunno if it's tough love or it's just somebody who's willing to like speak truth at us. You know, give us a little compassion, but also give us a little kick to say, look, this is, you know, and some of it I think about as you talk about that, like the imposter syndrome, right?
[00:26:04] Craig P. Anderson: That's all in you. There's no external evidence of this insecurity that you feel. It's just you. But that doesn't make it necessarily easy to kick yourself out. Right. It's just kind of layer all the time.
[00:26:16] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah, and I feel like imposter syndrome has gotten a bad rap. Like I've seen so many headlines or talks or trainings on like, let's get rid of it and.
[00:26:26] Dr. Lani Jones: I don't think it's necessarily that we need to get rid of it, we just need to reframe it because a lot of people go through it and it's a natural just growing and learning process as you're coming into things. I know even like as a psychologist, like, okay, it took like a decade of training, but one day I had to have everyone signing off on my work I was doing.
[00:26:45] Dr. Lani Jones: Then I went to bed and woke up the next morning and no one had to sign off. And I was, you know, deemed competent and I was licensed, and it's like all I did was sleep in that timeframe, you know? And so there are like these weird transitions of all of a sudden you're deemed competent when you just weren't a few hours before.
[00:27:04] Dr. Lani Jones: And just starting to own that and knowing, okay, everyone's gotta grow, everyone's gotta learn. And so feeling like I'm a little bit of an imposter here. Okay. That's not, I don't think that's all negative. I think that's just part of the learning growth process.
[00:27:20] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And I, you know, we shouldn't broadly generalize, but I'm not convinced, not everybody deals with this.
[00:27:26] Craig P. Anderson: I think everybody, some people have better coping mechanisms naturally with it, but you know, it, I think it never does go away. It just shifts. I, I think of imposter syndrome as like whack-a-mole. You finally get over it over here. And then you move into some new scenario that you've never done before or a new job or something else, and it's like right back there again.
[00:27:46] Craig P. Anderson: And it just constantly is, you know, it will show up and hopefully over time you learn better how to manage it. But I sometimes wonder there's positive ways and negative ways to cope with it, right? One way you know, you can turn into a real jerk to offset your own insecurity. And I can think of people in my career that were like that.
[00:28:02] Craig P. Anderson: And then other people who learn, chose to learn and grow, become better leaders as a result. So it's really imposter syndrome to me is just, it's so endemic. 'cause I think there's just so many things in our head that tell us, you know, you're not good enough, you're not strong enough. I. Or it could just be that's how I was raised and I'm a train wreck.
[00:28:19] Craig P. Anderson: I'm not really sure which one it is. It could just be my own deep rooted pathologies and psychologies. I don't know. So well, so when you think about that early experience and the work you're doing now, what, what takeaways did you have from that, that you're able to do both as you're kind of leading officially and unofficially now and and coaching other people and how they can lead?
[00:28:41] Craig P. Anderson: What are some of the big lessons that, that have helped you with your coaching now and you're leading now?
[00:28:45] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah, I think just removing a lot of the stigma from that growth process and probably part of being a psychologist like you throughout your training in grad school. I. You get so many evaluations when you're first starting out.
[00:29:00] Dr. Lani Jones: There's always someone behind the one way mirror, and so it is evaluation, evaluation, evaluation, like almost overkill sometimes. When I was on internship, just by a varying array of circumstances, I had five supervisors and so that was trying to please five people who we were doing, you know. Qualitative work that there wasn't always a black or white answer to.
[00:29:26] Dr. Lani Jones: And so I think I was kind of forced. In my twenties to really get okay, giving and receiving feedback and constructive feedback, and also learning to take it for what it was that even if that was a boss or someone with way more expertise, it was still an opinion. And so take the good that you could from it, learn from it, grow from it, and then move on.
[00:29:50] Dr. Lani Jones: And so with a lot of these leaders like. There's still a lot of discomfort with receiving feedback or even knowing how to give that to their teams constructively or a way that's actually fruitful and helpful. And so we talk a lot about, yeah, just sitting with that feedback feast, even like in our coaching sessions and whatnot to, and they, a lot of founders and CEOs.
[00:30:13] Dr. Lani Jones: If it's not just a disgruntled employee, a lot of time you aren't getting constructive feedback from peers. You don't have very many people at the same level as you. And so kind of tying into that posture and syndrome, like yeah, what are those limiting beliefs? What is the narrative you're telling your story about the situation and just.
[00:30:32] Dr. Lani Jones: Unpacking some of those layers of how are you being your own worst enemy? Like how are you constructing a glass ceiling for yourself, so to speak?
[00:30:40] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. Or even a glass floor. I think, you know, one of the things that's hard, I think a lot of leaders struggle with this is to try and get their people to give 'em honest feedback.
[00:30:50] Craig P. Anderson: You know, everybody wants to kind of blow smoke. And it's like, no, if you see me doing something stupid, don't hang me out to dry. Tell me I'm being stupid. And it's really hard, I think, to build that in a leadership team until they learn to trust you. And then how you handle that when it 'cause to your point, how do you handle that feedback when it comes?
[00:31:09] Craig P. Anderson: Do you get super defensive? Do you kind of deflect or do you say, wow, say more about that. 'cause I really wanna understand. And it can be trying to train your team or get them to trust you to give you that feedback is huge because otherwise you don't have a lot of feedback. 'cause everyone's just kind of kowtowing to you as the leader and it's not good.
[00:31:33] Craig P. Anderson: It blows you out of proportion, I think.
[00:31:36] Dr. Lani Jones: Mm-hmm. Are you familiar with the book, the One Minute Manager?
[00:31:40] Craig P. Anderson: It's been a minute, but yes. Okay.
[00:31:42] Dr. Lani Jones: So anyway, it's really short. It's only like 90 minutes on audiobook, but that is oftentimes a starting point. I'll start with leaders at a lot of levels because. It's at least super quick to the point of just like you were saying in the moment, you need to be giving them feedback.
[00:31:59] Dr. Lani Jones: Like if you are waiting a year and telling them, you know, on their yearly review, the, the moment's gone. Like you shouldn't even bring it up. Right? And so there's just so many basic principles and that to get started of giving immediate feedback, establishing that trust just to working on that cultural piece of this is how we do it.
[00:32:19] Dr. Lani Jones: We give feedback to each other. It's a really helpful place.
[00:32:23] Craig P. Anderson: That's great. No, I love that. And I've got, I know lots of stories about that probably that I've done too, but have done to me, and it's really hard when you get that feedback six months later and you're like, I've been doing this for six months and you've been letting me go.
[00:32:36] Craig P. Anderson: Well, Lani, if you could go back in time to. Yourself or one of your clients in those early leadership roles, be it just where you're in a position of influence or you have that title and authority, what's the one piece of advice that you would give that person or your younger self that would make the road a little bit easier?
[00:32:57] Dr. Lani Jones: I would probably say don't be so defensive because part of my age is perfectionist. Tendencies in nature of, oh no, I screwed up. And so being able to better receive feedback, and actually I'll take one of my other crushes here is Ted Lasso. And there are some really key moments in that series where he's receiving some hard feedback and he just does it without such defensiveness and it totally makes the other person drop their guard.
[00:33:30] Dr. Lani Jones: You know? It creates more trust. And so I would. Yeah, tell my younger self of just, okay, take it. Just because you hear it doesn't mean you have to embody it, because sometimes, yeah, it's not helpful. It's not actually about you. It could be saying more about the person than yourself, but just to create that disarming experience and that can be a really fruitful way and I wish, yeah, I wish I had learned that a lot earlier.
[00:33:56] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, it's a tough one for sure. Yeah. Well, Lani, if people want to continue the conversation, learn more about you and your business, where can they find you online?
[00:34:05] Dr. Lani Jones: Yeah, they can head to drlanijones.com and they can reach out to me and communicate that way. Also, if they wanna start diving into some of these bigger questions they're asking and about their leadership, there's a starter kit on there too, but that's the great way.
[00:34:21] Craig P. Anderson: Sounds great. Well, we'll drop links to all that in the show notes. Thank you for coming on and sharing the story of your executive evolution. I really appreciate it.
[00:34:28] Dr. Lani Jones: Thanks for the conversation.
[00:34:33] Craig P. Anderson: Lani. Thanks so much for a great interview. There's so many pieces that you can pick out of there. So many things that are great lessons for us to talk about, but as always, I wanna break them down into the three areas of leadership. Competence, competence and calm in the area of competence. The thing I open the show with feedback should be immediate and constructive.
[00:34:52] Craig P. Anderson: It doesn't matter if it's positive feedback or negative feedback. It has to be immediate, and we want it to be something that helps our teammate, our employee, grow. So make sure that you're not waiting to give feedback. It's an area of confidence in really your own inner, inner self as a great leader to do that quickly and timely.
[00:35:10] Craig P. Anderson: Two, in the area of confidence. Lani defined leadership as influence and purpose and service of others. Nowhere in there does it say with a title. Confidence in your leadership is knowing that you can lead and influence people without even having a title that kind of forces them to follow your way. In fact, it's probably more effective and if you can figure out how to influence before you have the title, you will be a better leader for it.
[00:35:36] Craig P. Anderson: So never mistake as she told us in her story. That you had to necessarily have the title to influence a group and to lead a group. You can do a lot of that leadership by how you show up an important lesson for all of us. And then finally, in the area of calm, kind of turning around the feedback discussion.
[00:35:54] Craig P. Anderson: You know, as a boss, it's really sometimes hard to get feedback because not everybody wants to share things with you. Think about the emperor has no close. But one of the ways that we can really help our teammates give us feedback is to take that feedback in with an open heart. Look at it. From ourselves is an opportunity for us to grow, for us to develop, for us to become better at what we're doing, and that's really an area where we can keep calm.
[00:36:16] Craig P. Anderson: Instead of getting defensive and tied up and angry when somebody has some feedback for us, really take it as an open opportunity for you to become a better leader. Remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time. All it takes is developing your confidence, confidence and calm.
[00:36:31] Craig P. Anderson: We'll see you next time on Executive Evolution.