“It’s okay to not know the answers, but it’s not okay to sit on that.”

In this episode, Craig P. Anderson speaks with Sean McDonald, President of MOR Associates, about navigating leadership in the face of autonomy, uncertainty, and change. Sean shares how his early experiences taught him to step into responsibility before he had a title—and why that mindset remains critical today. Sean and Craig explore the challenges leaders face when they don’t have all the answers, how to build trust during turbulent times, and why empathy requires action. Drawing on his own experiences and working with not-for-profit leaders, Sean offers a grounded, forward-looking perspective on leadership development.

After You Listen:

• Connect with Sean McDonald on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcdonaldsean/ 
• Check out MOR Associates: https://morassociates.com/ 
• Connect with Craig on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigpanderson/
• Sign up for Craig’s Monthly Business Leadership Webinars: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/3GDgSdp_RfGqegxIXIbAYg

• Autonomy builds leadership muscles—especially when support is limited
• Listening creates trust, but action builds momentum
• In times of uncertainty, focus on what you can control
  
  

Things to listen for:

(00:00) Intro

(01:25) Recommended reading for leaders

(02:47) Lessons Sean learned from his father

(04:24) Leadership as choice, movement, and impact

(06:27) Navigating leadership in nonprofits

(09:02) Insights from Sean’s first leadership experience

(11:35) The impact of AI on leadership

(16:31) Sean’s professional leadership Journey

(22:00) Challenges in leadership during change

(27:15) Advice for young leaders

Episode Transcript

This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human. 

[00:00:00] Craig P. Anderson: Everybody looked at me after the merger was announced and said, what does this mean? Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. The bank that we represented in the company that I ran was merging with another big bank all at the same time.

[00:00:25] Craig P. Anderson: And it happened. I found out walking down a stairwell at a conference, and as soon as I got around my team, the first question they all asked me is, what does this mean? I need answers. What's gonna happen? I. I didn't have answers, and so often in leadership we don't have the answers right away, and we don't always have to have the answers right away.

[00:00:42] Craig P. Anderson: What we really need to do is to be able to set the stage, figure out what we can control, get the information that we need. I. And then start moving forward towards getting the answers, especially in the areas of things that we can control. That's one of the things that I talk about today in my interview with Sean McDonald, the president at MOR Associates.

[00:01:01] Craig P. Anderson: So let's jump right in and hear the story of his Executive Evolution. Sean, welcome to the Executive Evolution Podcast. Thank you Craig. It's great to be here. I'm so excited to have you here to hear the story of your Executive Evolution and how you've grown. As always, we jump right in with the lightning round.

[00:01:19] Craig P. Anderson: I've got three questions for you and let's see where we go from there. It's never a very fast lightning round 'cause I'm always too interested in your answers. So question number one, what is the best leadership book 

[00:01:29] Sean McDonald: you have ever read? Alright. Before I answer that, I gotta say I've listened to a number of your podcasts.

[00:01:34] Sean McDonald: They're great. Thank you, Craig. But I keep wondering, every time you say that, should you call it something else, Craig? Should you call the lightning ground something else, 

[00:01:40] Craig P. Anderson: or quit making the joke? One of those two things has to to change. Yeah. 

[00:01:44] Sean McDonald: Either way. I'm ready. All right. So what's the the best business book or leadership book?

[00:01:48] Sean McDonald: Leadership book, yep. Yeah, I just finished reading or listening to Steal Like An Artist. And it was, uh, not a leadership book. It's a book more about creativity and the, the, the very essence of the book was about learning from others. So kind of what you're doing here, Craig. But, uh, that's most recent.

[00:02:07] Sean McDonald: But I, I really liked it. But I would have to say for me, again, not a leadership book, but does apply, would be James Clear's Atomic Habit. Oh, you know what I really appreciate in that book is it sort of breaks down sort of the components of trying to get better, be better, be a better leader. And so I think if you can master the ability to evolve your habits, you can, per your Executive Evolution concept, you know, we can continue to get better.

[00:02:38] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, it's, I that's on my stack. I haven't read it yet, but I've heard a lot of good things. It's the first time it's come up here too, so. Perfect. Yeah. After you take it in, uh, let me know what you thought. Yeah, it sounds like a good one. All right. Question number two. Who is your leadership crush?

[00:02:53] Sean McDonald: Leadership crush. All right. Well, it's you again. You, the terminology throws me off a little bit because this will sound weird if I say, you know, uh, my father, right? Yeah. You know, watching him in his journey has been, you know, something that I've been paying attention to. You know, we, we model leadership, you know, not just in work, but at home.

[00:03:14] Sean McDonald: And so I think, you know, trying to emulate him along the way has been. 

[00:03:19] Craig P. Anderson: What I've tried to do. Yeah. And it's so interesting 'cause I think, you know, when you can show up and lead at work and show up and lead at home and, and teach your kids how to take on leadership roles. Yeah. That's such a huge part of just kind of an integrity of your life where you can stay and then just see where it all goes.

[00:03:35] Craig P. Anderson: I'm, I'm always amazed to kind of see both the bad and the stuff that I'm probably sending my kids into therapy for in a few years, but also hopefully the good of, you know, when I see the leadership in them or when they ask me. Questions. It's, you know, it's like, that's always 

[00:03:50] Sean McDonald: great, right? Think about the lessons that we learned from people like that.

[00:03:53] Sean McDonald: You know, we witness how hard they work and that's, that's a, a leadership competency of course, you know, work ethic, but the loyalty to people is what sort of stands out to me. Most. The type of almost heroic efforts that my father would go through to, to be there for other people is something that I've picked up on and is embraced as part of my leadership.

[00:04:14] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, and, and how we treat people and all that, you know, through all aspects. Leadership is so transformative both for our employees, but if we do it right, it's kind of everybody in our circle. And I know days I'm great at that and days I am really poor at that. So it's interesting. Alright. And finally, in this coming on the, on the heels of that question, in 10 words or less, how do you define leadership?

[00:04:39] Sean McDonald: Alright, again, I feel like I'm breaking, breaking the rules here, you know, because. In our work, we encourage people to, to, to challenge their definition of leadership. And we find that people often come in with sort of a, a bait notion of what a leader is. And again, like, like you're doing here with Executive Evolution, we've gotta break that mindset.

[00:04:59] Sean McDonald: And so I've given myself permission, Craig, not to have a definition of leadership, but I was preparing for this call and I, and I said, okay, I know Craig's gonna ask me this. And so I did. I, I did recently. Break down leadership into three components. Choice, movement and impact, right? Yeah. So on the choice side, we recognize that leadership is about making decisions, and it's about the inputs we have.

[00:05:23] Sean McDonald: It's about perspectives we gain, the people we meet, and sort of looking strategically ahead, right? And so that choice part is an important part of leadership. The second is. Can't stay an idea alone, right? It's about taking action. It's about movement. It's about persistence and conviction to engage others, because ultimately leadership and leading is about change.

[00:05:45] Sean McDonald: And as we think about change, that's the hardest part for people. And so how do we rally people? How do we help people through that, that change and, and in that movement process. And then ultimately, impact is about results, right? That we've gotta hit the results we're trying to, to hit and get to the places 

[00:06:01] Craig P. Anderson: we're trying to go.

[00:06:02] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And, and that all those pieces are so important. And, you know, when I think about impact, right? So many times I kind of drift on this podcast to the impact on the people. But if we're not impacting the business well, and we're not making the right business decisions, I, you know, I talked about this recently with I.

[00:06:18] Craig P. Anderson: With somebody that is just, you know, look, if we don't have a business, we have nothing. All the empathic leadership in the world, all these great things we wanna aspire to, don't mean anything if we're not looking at our numbers, driving the business, making sure things are going in the right direction.

[00:06:30] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, yeah. And having the impact we wanna have. It's significant. We can't do the big, we can't do the life changing stuff if we don't get the business going where we need it to go. 

[00:06:37] Sean McDonald: Craig, we do a lot of work with nonprofits, big nonprofits, higher ed and healthcare systems, and you know, nonprofit. Is a tax category, not a desire.

[00:06:48] Sean McDonald: Right. So they, they too are businesses and they have to adopt that mindset. 

[00:06:53] Craig P. Anderson: Oh yeah. And sometimes very big businesses, I mean, maybe the results or the way you measure results are different, but it can't just be this pie in the sky right thing. Right. We've gotta, you know, some of the, you know, if you're a 10 person not-for-profit or you know, a huge one with huge assets, if you're not leading well and making tough decisions.

[00:07:14] Craig P. Anderson: I think it's, it's just, it's hard. It's really 

[00:07:17] Sean McDonald: hard. As we're talking about it, it's, it's probably why I use the word impact as that third word. Yeah. Otherwise, it would probably squarely land on the word results. But I think in the nonprofit, you know, realm of leadership, they have historically talked about impact versus results.

[00:07:33] Sean McDonald: But I, I think I'm, I. You know, hand in hand there as we, as we look at it. 

[00:07:37] Craig P. Anderson: It's funny you say that 'cause I do like a strategic planning with, with businesses including not-for-profits, and I always kind of push them to say, look, we've gotta have three measurable financial results. Well, we wanna talk about how many people we help if we're not hitting our fundraising, if we're not making our revenue numbers, if we're not doing or managing our expenses.

[00:07:56] Craig P. Anderson: None of, there is no impact. And, and I'm not saying it's not important to think about how many people we're impacting on our mission. But our mission doesn't happen if we don't figure out the financial aspects. And that's why we really push them to put that first. Yeah, you're right on it. Because that's, that's what makes it possible.

[00:08:14] Craig P. Anderson: And it's, I think, I don't know, you work with a lot of people in not-for-profits, and a lot of those people tend to be mission driven people. Yeah. And I think there's an interesting thing where maybe you have this great mission driven nature and then suddenly you realize you were great at it and you're surrounded by all these people.

[00:08:28] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And nobody probably told 'em how to lead. Right. And what happens with them when you're dealing? Like is that something you see a lot with that segment? Yeah, it keeps 

[00:08:37] Sean McDonald: us, uh, keeps us busy. Yeah, for 

[00:08:39] Craig P. Anderson: sure. 

[00:08:40] Sean McDonald: Yeah. And it reminds me of the, the airplane analogy, right? And this is really hard concept for people.

[00:08:45] Sean McDonald: You know, you've gotta put your mask on first before you put your mask on your own kid, right? There's certain types of people that are like, no way I'm gonna, I'm gonna rescue everyone else first. And that business mindset is really something that. That people need to spend time with and which is why people have to embrace their own definition of what a leader is.

[00:09:02] Sean McDonald: Right? They need to grow into it versus try to meet some bias or expectation. 

[00:09:07] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. Good. Love it. All right. See, this is where we get dangerous. We're all over, but it's great. All right. Let's reel it in. Let's go back, Sean, to your first leadership role. What was the first time you saw yourself sitting in that leadership 

[00:09:21] Sean McDonald: chair?

[00:09:22] Sean McDonald: Again, I went back and forth on this one, and so if you don't mind, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dip into the, to the personal, because again, I, I think on our leadership journeys, we learn so much from so many people and from so many situations. But if I go backwards, I. The first leadership role I feel like I had was when I was a kid and for various reasons, you know, work and health related, my parents gave me a lot of autonomy.

[00:09:48] Sean McDonald: I think that's the word we use in, in the business space. I had a lot of autonomy and it's interesting to reflect on that because sometimes you get thrust into leadership situations, leadership roles, whether you know it or not, and you have to figure it out, right? You, you have to make the best choices you can.

[00:10:06] Sean McDonald: With the information you have, you know, trying to get to the directions that, that you can, and, and ultimately the lesson for me as I look back at that one, and it's a huge one, especially as you think about the context that many people are navigating right now, that you can either let those situations define you or drive you.

[00:10:26] Sean McDonald: And I tell you, man, it's heavy if you let that stuff define you. Right. And if you can let these things drive you to become a better version of yourself, to overcome these things, to embrace the people around you that think like you or there's nothing that you can't do. 

[00:10:41] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, no, a hundred percent it's, I I think there, you know, when you go back and talk about your first leadership role as a kid, you know, I, I would love to see the stats on this, and I don't even know how you do the study, but I remember like one of the first leadership roles I can remember was like in second or third grade, and it was a group project.

[00:10:57] Craig P. Anderson: Right. Maybe it was fifth grade, great, but it was elementary school. Right. And suddenly someone's gonna have to step up and take the leadership role. Yeah. In that project. And you're either taking on all the work yourself and not delegating. Yeah. You are dumping it all on everybody. You're yelling at people, you who knows.

[00:11:15] Craig P. Anderson: But I would love to see like how those formative experiences kind of imprint on people of how they think about leadership. Oh yeah. Later on in 

[00:11:22] Sean McDonald: life, I tell you, I'm fortunate to get to listen to a lot of. People's leadership journeys and we invite them to go, you know, personal, professional and, and it's more often than not, they go backwards into the personal around something that happened when they were in second grade or their parents or, and it's fabulous, but you know, it transfers, right?

[00:11:41] Sean McDonald: So if I go back to my, to, to, to that lesson and then link it to my first professional experience, yeah, I think about the crossover with autonomy. And you know, we're gonna see more and more autonomy as we think about, you know, what AI does to the number of, you know, managers to direct reports, right? So more and more we're gonna see people have a lot more autonomy to lead from where they are.

[00:12:04] Sean McDonald: And so this lesson around, do you step into that moment or do you wait for direction, I think is gonna be a lesson that many of us are just gonna need to lean in on even further, right? How do you lead from where you are when you don't have. A clear direction when you don't have, you know, traditional support structures.

[00:12:23] Sean McDonald: Yeah, 

[00:12:24] Craig P. Anderson: that's a really interesting question. I mean, and do you think kind of as you're looking at that, it's gonna be people having a lot more direct reports, they're gonna get a lot less 

[00:12:31] Sean McDonald: input? Yeah. Yeah. As you think about, uh, manager's roles and we break the manager's roles down into, you know, different.

[00:12:39] Sean McDonald: Different aspects and tasks as we think about what AI is capable of doing. I think if the average direct report line now is, whatever, seven, I don't know the number that you know, not too far off, it'll be, you know, 25. And so the traditional tasks of a manager, I think will evolve. And so the individual leader through some AI supports, but also, you know, digging in a little deeper, right, what do they say?

[00:13:03] Sean McDonald: It's not that AI is gonna replace. You know everyone's jobs, but those that know how to use ai. We'll have an advantage, you know, in this next chapter. 

[00:13:11] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. It's funny, I, I, I actually have an AI coach I'm getting ready to start working with. 'cause I, in one phone call, I thought I was pretty good. I didn't think I was great, but I, and I was like mind blown at how little I actually knew I.

[00:13:25] Craig P. Anderson: I think you're right. We are gonna have to embrace and the people who can really embrace how to leverage it are gonna succeed. But it'll be interesting to see if you start spreading that out. And I know kind of lowering organizations, you have those big, like 25 and 30 direct report structures. That's really hard on the, both the accountability part and the development part.

[00:13:45] Craig P. Anderson: When you have that many, you know, how do you give time to that many people? That's a proactive way and, and see what's going on. Yeah, 

[00:13:52] Sean McDonald: it's, I don't know what it's gonna look like, Craig, but I know it's gonna change. Yeah. And as we think about the big essence of, uh, of leadership, right? As we talked about choice, movement, and impact, you know, on the choice side, there's gonna be direction pointed, ad visions, you know, stated, and then the movement is gonna happen.

[00:14:11] Sean McDonald: You know, from the people that can make it happen versus sort of layers in between that, that feed the communication down. Yeah. And ultimately it'll be a, a, a, a a, a circle relationship with sort of the impact and results impacting the next choices we make. And so the future will be different. And it back to the less the lesson of like, will, will I.

[00:14:30] Sean McDonald: Let this current context, you know, define me or drive me. Right? Here's another point, right? Let's drive, let's lean in. There's some organizations that are, you know, encouraging people to use AI and we're going down an AI path here, but there are some organizations that are encouraging and people to, to experiment with ai, but most are not.

[00:14:49] Sean McDonald: Right? And so it's still like you are interested until you began to explore. And so other people are. You know, exploring, but how do we really lean in and, and, and understand how we can leverage it as a, a leader and as a professional. Yeah, and I 

[00:15:02] Craig P. Anderson: know even within people I work with, they're leaning into asking AI questions about what to do in different, not, not just like, how do I figure out this Excel spreadsheet?

[00:15:13] Craig P. Anderson: It's like interpersonal problems, or how do I approach my boss with this? And all these kind of things that are starting to fill in on that. Which hopefully that's all good lessons. They're pulling outta that. I guess. We'll see, Greg, they're coming for you and 

[00:15:26] Sean McDonald: I, right? It's all right. That's all right. I mean, I don't think it'll be hard to imagine almost any profession that won't be impacted.

[00:15:36] Sean McDonald: And so as we think about leadership leading in this AI evolution, we need to think about what, what do we truly bring in a profession in a role, and how do we. You know, leverage the things that are uniquely the services, the capabilities that we bring forward. So there's, you know, coaching today, you and I can go to chatt PT and we can ask it a question and it'll give us an answer, right?

[00:16:01] Sean McDonald: But then there's a way that Craig coaches, and so maybe you can begin to think about tailoring some sort of, you know, Craig PA chatbot, right? That, that would be your voice. But then there's sort of these like specific. Scenarios that I think would benefit from the human connection. So I see the short term, you know, as a, an opportunity to, to leverage both, right?

[00:16:24] Sean McDonald: What can AI bring us, but also what can we do together that makes it even better? Think about the book I just read. Uh, Steal Like An Artist, you know? Yeah. Creativity is a great spot where I think we can play with ai, but ultimately, you know, wanna bring, bring some of the humans together. A 

[00:16:40] Craig P. Anderson: hundred percent.

[00:16:40] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. So going back, you know, so take either of those two roles, that personal or first professional leadership role. Yeah. You know, how did that go for you? What were your big takeaways from that 

[00:16:51] Sean McDonald: role? Let's go to the professional one. I had this role, it was a new role at a startup. I had a team, but the team reported, you know, it was sort of a dotted line to me, but they reported up into their regional, uh, place around the country.

[00:17:06] Sean McDonald: And so I was forming this new role. People repeating the role and, you know, there was a lot of autonomy. And so, you know, again, we leaned in, we did what we need to do to, to, to meet the results, and I really enjoyed, you know, that, that role. But around 2001, right? As the, as the bubble burst. Yeah. The big lesson I learned there was ultimately results matter, you know, and I was caught up in a, around the layoffs and, you know, as a, a young professional, that is a hit, your ego is, is isn't doing well at that point because, you know, you left college, you're all in, you're giving, you know, working extra hours and you feel pretty good about yourself, you're getting a paycheck.

[00:17:44] Sean McDonald: But it was a, it was a really good reminder for me. That you've got to pay attention to your results. And it's not that I wasn't paying attention to my results, I think it's as it relates to the context and you know the people around you and having control over I. You ultimately, you know your career that you own.

[00:18:04] Sean McDonald: Right. It's it, yeah. Other people. If you rely too much on other people, you give up some of some of that control. So that was my ultimate lesson, right, is that results matter. Oh, yeah. Oh, right. Yeah. 

[00:18:14] Craig P. Anderson: Imagine 

[00:18:15] Sean McDonald: that 

[00:18:15] Craig P. Anderson: and, and it sounds like one of those really rough roles where you kind of are in charge but aren't in charge, and how do you get things done when you don't have a title?

[00:18:24] Craig P. Anderson: To kind of thrust forth when all else fails. I think that's the 

[00:18:28] Sean McDonald: essence of leadership, right? Yeah. Is is that, yeah, sure. Certainly in the old traditional model of leadership, if you're on top of an org chart, you've got a bit more influence in sort of the power structure. But I think the essence of leadership.

[00:18:42] Sean McDonald: Really is sort of regardless of your position, your role, your title, how do you lead from where you are? You know, that movement piece. How do you gain the persistence and the conviction to, to get others to carry along since, 'cause then Craig, they're not just doing it because you told them to, but they're doing it because they want to, because they engaged in it.

[00:19:02] Sean McDonald: They're empowered. That's leadership. 

[00:19:05] Craig P. Anderson: And it's so interesting, like influence and leadership and kind of where those two come together is so often, you know, I have clients I talked to recently where, you know, is, is a person on the staff who's everybody kind of followed but not an not for good results.

[00:19:20] Craig P. Anderson: This person was kind of a jaded person and they had an out weighted influence. They didn't have a title, they didn't have authority. But they influence that whole organization by the way they showed up and just because of their personality and everything else. Yeah, which is a really tricky problem to manage, but it also shows you that you don't have to have a title lead in an organization.

[00:19:41] Craig P. Anderson: How you show up every day, the choices you make, the way you encounter and engage is really leadership in and of itself. Without maybe the responsibility. Right. 

[00:19:52] Sean McDonald: Yeah. Love 

[00:19:52] Craig P. Anderson: it. 

[00:19:53] Sean McDonald: Sounds like the next potential person for your podcast, that person that you just, uh, 

[00:19:56] Craig P. Anderson: talked about. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, it's an interesting case, so very interesting.

[00:20:01] Craig P. Anderson: So now you've got the whole company, you know, you're leading the whole company, you know, crazy times that we're all dealing with right now, and especially like in the not-for-profit and higher ed space that you're working with. Yeah. So how are you showing up as a leader today? You know, how have you grown over the years in your leadership style?

[00:20:18] Sean McDonald: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so we've got a team of about 35 people here at MOR. They are all, you know, solid humans trying to do the right thing, and I'm, I'm grateful to be able to work with, you know, such a great team and I, and I think whether it's. Way back when I was, uh, running around as a youth with a lot of autonomy.

[00:20:41] Sean McDonald: Uh, yeah. Or now I think surround who you surround yourself with matters. And so that's, that's number one because it becomes a place where I can, I can be authentic, you know, I can be transparent. We've created a space where I can make mistakes and, and people will, you know, share their feedback with me, but have grace.

[00:21:04] Sean McDonald: It's a place where I can be. Honest in that balance of like what the current context means to us and our clients, but also lay out a, a strategy that they have, they have trust in. And so I'm, I'm grateful for, uh, you know, for the work that we've done for years to get to where we are today. Right. It doesn't happen overnight.

[00:21:25] Sean McDonald: Yeah. That type of environment. 

[00:21:27] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. And what, you know, especially a team that's really working around kind of leadership coaching and leadership development. And everybody, I would at some, and leaders are always under a magnifying glass, but you're the leader of a leadership company. 

[00:21:40] Sean McDonald: Yeah, 

[00:21:41] Craig P. Anderson: right. You know, I do 

[00:21:42] Sean McDonald: feel a little pressure there.

[00:21:43] Sean McDonald: I do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what does that bring for you? Yeah. You know, every day. Well, I, I feel like I gotta model it, right? Yeah. And, um. You know, I've, I, I hope as we've talked about throughout this conversation, you know, good leaders do need to model the behaviors and practices they want others to adopt. And I do feel a little bit extra of that pressure, but it's worth it because on one hand, I'm a practitioner of leadership, but my other role is I get to, you know, facilitate.

[00:22:08] Sean McDonald: These leadership programs and, and so I get to talk to, to developing leaders about mistakes that I've made and they can learn. Yeah. Like you, uh, introduce your podcast that like others can learn about. Yeah. The mistakes we've made along the way and hopefully not make them, but it's great. It's like living in a, a learning lab, you know, 24 7.

[00:22:26] Sean McDonald: 'cause by the way Yeah. At home I also get good feedback about my leadership or, or lack thereof. Yeah, I bet, I bet. Yeah. Frank, did I tell you I have three, I have three teenage daughters. Did I tell you that? No, they're wonderful, but they're, they're, uh, they're good 

[00:22:39] Craig P. Anderson: at giving feedback too. It's a leadership opportunity.

[00:22:42] Craig P. Anderson: So not probably in my normal questions, but just given the nature of what you do and, and clients who, you have clients who are really going through a lot of change right now, what are you seeing as some of the challenges of people going through this tumultuous change and what are. What are some of the one or two things people going through that could be thinking about right now to kind of get through to the other side?

[00:23:03] Craig P. Anderson: Well, there's a couple of 

[00:23:03] Sean McDonald: answers there, and I'll start with the, the second part. I was at a, a workshop last week with leaders from a handful of institutions, and they were talking about this very thing and, and they were seeking advice, right? What do we do when, you know, we're finding out news the same time our team is, right?

[00:23:21] Sean McDonald: Right. And they come to us and they ask us questions like, what's this mean? What's gonna happen? You know, what are we supposed to say? And I think in that moment in time when things are tough, it's, it's not necessarily about what you're supposed to say, right? As a leader, we put too much pressure on ourselves and carry the weight of, of having to dab all the answers, when really we can flip it and listen right, and ask, you know, what's on your mind, right?

[00:23:45] Sean McDonald: Ex exhibit some empathy and, and let people share sort of the scenarios and the concerns they have. But I think just as quick as we can, press the empathy button and be there for people when they need to share and they need to express themselves as a leader. This is where the impact piece comes in. We need to shift that eventually to, so what do we wanna do about that?

[00:24:06] Sean McDonald: There's some things that are in our control and there are some things that are not in our control, and let's focus on the things that that are in our control and let's do something about that. So we wanna show up for people who wanna be there for people, but we don't wanna just be a sounding board, a venting, you know, source.

[00:24:21] Sean McDonald: We've gotta point that at a, a direction, and it's okay to not have the answers. Craig, that was the biggest concern that people had, is they felt like they needed to have the answers. But it's okay to not know the answers, but it's not okay to, you know, to, to sit on that. Right? We wanna figure out the things that matter to us and then go try to find out more information.

[00:24:41] Sean McDonald: Yeah. That's 

[00:24:42] Craig P. Anderson: so crucial to think about when you're going through really difficult times is, you know, what can I control? What can I influence? Where do I need to get feedback? Yeah. And then work to find a definition, an answer. But you, you don't just leaders. And it's so interesting people think that you do, but.

[00:25:00] Craig P. Anderson: Leaders don't have the magic answer. Like we don't just have it right out of the gate. And frankly, we're so far removed sometimes from a lot of what's going on that we need to say, all right, look, let's start setting the parameters. What can we control? What do we need to know? Gather that information in, and then work towards making an informed decision so that we can really take the team forward.

[00:25:20] Craig P. Anderson: And that empathy piece you mentioned is part of that listening and learning and letting them kind of tell you what's going on and empathize with the challenge. Then say, all right, this is great. We are working on a solution, or at least the first set of answers and what we're gonna do, and then we'll get back to you.

[00:25:35] Craig P. Anderson: You 

[00:25:36] Sean McDonald: got it, Craig. And the beauty of the, the, the process you described is that people were part of that. They were informing that. And so when we come back, you know, they're now part of the story. It's not that like. You know, you're coming back and, and you're giving them some, you know, some version they never heard of.

[00:25:50] Sean McDonald: Right. They, they've informed it. So that's, you know, again, the work of leadership is, is also about listening and, and it reminds me of the earlier question we had about defining leadership, right? Is that we're sort of breaking a mold of what many people thought was a leader or what, you know, leadership was by talking about and modeling some of these things.

[00:26:09] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah, I love it. It's, you know, the number of times I've, I should, if I had a nickel for every time I've said to somebody, like, people wanna be heard, and if they feel heard, they're okay. You know, maybe they're not thrilled, but they're okay if it doesn't go the way they think, as long as they're heard. And that's such an important piece for leaders.

[00:26:26] Craig P. Anderson: You know, I, I think of a leader that I had who, you know, set up his office so far away from it where anybody was, you couldn't even make eye contact if you're walking by and he never kind of walked the room. And when you're completely shut off and inaccessible, it's really hard when it gets to crisis mode to pull people together.

[00:26:47] Craig P. Anderson: Yeah. We've got to be as much as we can. So much of being there is just is. You have to make the time to be in front of your people as a leader in a real way. Not standing up on a stage and just talking at them. 

[00:26:58] Sean McDonald: Yep. Craig, I love what you're saying and I'm concerned because as I watched from afar. Uh, you know, the clients that I work with, you know, they were all together, you know, at the center of the organization.

[00:27:08] Sean McDonald: And then because, you know, uh, different, different cost issues or whatever, their department got moved out. And so they're, you know, in some offsite building and then COVID happened and now they're all at home. And so as you think about that piece, you talked about the relationship piece that is going further and further away.

[00:27:25] Sean McDonald: We don't have the water cooler anymore, so people have to be more intentional. About building those relationships. And the second thing tied to what you said, I, I really appreciate, there's a colleague of mine, he, uh, he has a quote that kind of capitalizes on what you said there, that, you know, people don't mind, you know, change if they're part of it.

[00:27:42] Sean McDonald: And, and that exactly what, what you said. And so if we can build those relationships, we can, you know, engage them in the changes that are happening all around us, they'll feel empowered. They'll feel some of that autonomy, you know, tying it back, uh, earlier to, to engage and lead from where they are. 

[00:27:58] Craig P. Anderson: Love it.

[00:27:58] Craig P. Anderson: All right, and we always close, Sean, with one last opportunity for you to jump in a time machine. Go back in time to Sean in that first leadership role. What's the one piece of advice you'd give him that would make it easier, make him more effective, make the burden easier to carry? However you want to characterize it.

[00:28:17] Craig P. Anderson: What's your one piece of advice for young Sean? 

[00:28:20] Sean McDonald: Well, we hit on the results matters piece, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this pass to give a second one, and I guess it would be, keep going. As I reflect on my own journey and the many that I'm lucky enough to walk alongside with, it's hard sometimes, Greg, and we need people around us.

[00:28:37] Sean McDonald: We need reminders to keep going, you know, and to take that next step to get up when you fall. And so ultimately, yeah, that's what I would choose. Keep going, keep going, kid. You got this. Just 

[00:28:49] Craig P. Anderson: keep plugging. All right. Well, Sean, if people want to connect with you, follow you, what are the best ways for them to do that?

[00:28:55] Sean McDonald: Yeah, you can find me on, uh, LinkedIn at uh linkedin.com/in/mcdonald, sean, or you can jump out to our website at MORassociates.com. MORassociates.com. Those are two ways. 

[00:29:10] Craig P. Anderson: Excellent. Thanks so much for sharing the story of your Executive Evolution with us, Sean. We appreciate it. Thank 

[00:29:15] Sean McDonald: you, Craig. It's been a pleasure and I'm grateful for what you're doing trying to, to get lessons out there for everyone to gain.

[00:29:20] Sean McDonald: So thank you. Thanks. 

[00:29:24] Craig P. Anderson: That was a great interview. I really enjoyed kind of even the side trip we took down, talking about AI and what that's going to mean for leaders, and we'll touch base on that here in just a second as we jump into the key areas and the key takeaways for me in the areas of competence, confidence, and calm.

[00:29:39] Craig P. Anderson: In this episode of Executive Evolution one. Competence, stay on top of trends as we discuss today. AI is gonna have major impact on what it means to be a leader, not to mention all the things it's gonna do for us in our organization. So to build our confidence, we really need to. Embrace and get a hold of what's going on and what's changing and what it means for us and for our teams.

[00:30:01] Craig P. Anderson: Two, in the area of confidence, one of the things that I learned early on when we became part of JP Morgan Chase was I needed to know my numbers. There was no meeting I went to where it wasn't drilled down into me, and that's one of the things that Sean talked about. A knowing results. You really have to be able to be on top of your results, measure them and know them.

[00:30:19] Craig P. Anderson: Intimately and then finally in the area of calm, as I talked about in the intro, and as we talked about in the interview. You don't have to have all the answers, especially right away as a leader, you have to set the stage to say, Hey, look, we are going to get the information that we need. We are going to work on the things we can control and make decisions to move forward From there, after we talk to everybody who can help us start to drive to some of these answers, that's how you can retain calm both in yourself and in your organization.

[00:30:46] Craig P. Anderson: Remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time. All it takes is developing your confidence, confidence and calm. Thanks.