"Leadership is about more than making decisions. It's about being curious, courageous, and continuously learning from those around you."

In this episode of Executive Evolution, host Craig Anderson welcomes Dr. Jackie Freiberg, co-founder of Epic Work, Epic Life, to discuss building brave leaders who embrace risks and seek better ways to lead.

Jackie shares invaluable insights on creating a support network, addressing problems quickly, and surrounding yourself with advisors who challenge your decisions. She emphasizes the transformational power of asking questions and avoiding "I know" statements, drawing on her rich experience with iconic leaders. Tune in and learn about practical wisdom from a seasoned leadership expert.

Things to listen for:

• 02:14 Lightning Round with Jackie
• 02:21 Discussing Leadership Books
• 05:22 Leadership Crushes
• 10:26 Defining Leadership
• 12:50 Challenges for New Leaders
• 18:03 Dealing with Bad Bosses
• 21:50 Key Lessons for Successful CEOs
• 28:35 Final Advice for New Leaders
• 33:12 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

After You Listen:

• Get your copy of Nuts!: Southwest Airlines’ Crazy Recipe for Business and Personal Success
• Connect with Jackie on LinkedIn
• Check out Epic Work, Epic Life
• Connect with Craig on LinkedIn
• Check out Craig’s monthly free training on holding difficult conversations

Key Takeaways:

1. Emerging leaders must cultivate a mindset of curiosity and courage to ask questions and seek better ways of doing things
2. It's important for leaders to build a strong support system of trusted advisors and to develop superior public speaking skills
3. Effective leadership requires avoiding toxic work environments and fostering an atmosphere of feedback, empathy, and grace

Episode Transcript

This has been generated by AI and optimized by a human. 

Craig Anderson [00:00:00]:

My boss's boss picked up the phone, said hello. My first words were, I tell you, I've never done something like this before. Welcome to executive evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. At one time in my corporate life, my company acquired another company and the leader of that company became my boss. But he was a distant boss. Maybe three times I saw this person over the six to twelve months I worked for him and I was a direct report.

Craig Anderson [00:00:42]:

There was a lot of tension in the business, there was a lot of favoritism in the business and nothing was getting done. Most importantly, work wasn't getting accomplished. Disagreements were being broken up. It was becoming toxic. And I made the choice to do something about it. I knew his boss well, not great, but I decided I had to take this risk. So on a morning before leaving for a two week vacation, I picked up the phone and called my boss's boss and explained to him all the toxicity and difficulty and lack of progress we were making because of his leadership. His first words back to me were, you're not the first person to call me about this.

Craig Anderson [00:01:24]:

And I realized I did not have to accept a toxic situation any longer. My guest today is Doctor Jackie Freiberg. She is the co founder of Epic Work Epic Life. She is a keynote speaker and a presentation and skills coach. She has spoken with lots of leaders. She has met with many leaders. She really brings some keen insights today. So let's join in now for the story of how she sees executive evolution.

Craig Anderson [00:01:55]:

Jackie, welcome to the Executive Evolution podcast. I appreciate you coming on today.

Jackie Freiberg [00:01:59]:

Great to be here. Can't wait to get started.

Craig Anderson [00:02:02]:

I know you do so much work speaking to large groups of leaders and just have so much interaction. I'm really excited to get your perspective on how leaders can be successful both early in their careers and later. So, are you ready to dive into our lightning round which helps us kind of set the table?

Jackie Freiberg [00:02:19]:

Ah, let's go. Let's do it.

Craig Anderson [00:02:21]:

So Jackie, what is the best book on leadership you have ever read?

Jackie Freiberg [00:02:27]:

Oh gosh. My immediate answer would be, best book on leadership I've ever read is the one that speaks to me at the moment.

Craig Anderson [00:02:36]:

That's fine. I love it.

Jackie Freiberg [00:02:38]:

You know what, though? I will also say with a specific title in mind, in confident humility. So both confidence and humility. I think one of the best I've ever read and written is nuts. Southwest Airlines crazy recipe for business and personal success. And not Craig, not because we wrote it, but because we were absolutely able to chronicle one of the most iconic leaders in all time, Herb Killaher, who founded Southwest Airlines, and then the team of renegades who he surrounded himself with during that time. They were just. They're remarkable people who started an innovative company that created a culture that people love to work within, which is exactly the opposite of what we were talking about a little earlier. Right.

Jackie Freiberg [00:03:32]:

There was nothing toxic about that culture. It was loving. It was kind. It was service oriented. People were positively outrageous in the way that they served one another and then served the passengers in the community. So we were able to document that story. 25 years they were celebrating when we wrote that book. And then it told a story.

Jackie Freiberg [00:03:55]:

The book became an international bestseller. And people to this day still read that book and say, there's so many leadership principles in there that are timely and timeless. So if you're going to be an aficionado of leadership, you know what? Pick up a book. And if it speaks to leadership in a timely and a timeless fashion, and it does speak to you, it's good.

Craig Anderson [00:04:20]:

That's the book for you. And I think as you go through your career. Right. There's different books that hit you at a different time, in a different way. And I can just think, in my own leadership journey, there's books I read early on that gave me some of the toughening up I needed to be a successful leader because I was very conflict avoidant. But then also, as we culturally shift into more the company culture, and some of those things are important, those books start to hit you differently. And it's so important to have a broad depth of books that you peruse as a leader, I think I am.

Jackie Freiberg [00:04:49]:

100% in agreement of that. And these days, I mean, I still like to flip a page. You know, I still like to dog ear a page. I like to highlight. I like to underline. I don't know, for some of the emerging leaders these days, they're probably like, what a book? Maybe I should just. I'm online. I'm audible all the way.

Jackie Freiberg [00:05:06]:

So it really depends on what your style is. But create a library of your leadership favorites, and you'll be able to go back to those, whether they're real books or whether they're, you know, audible books or online.

Craig Anderson [00:05:19]:

Yeah, no, love it. All right, next question. Who is your leadership crush?

Jackie Freiberg [00:05:25]:

Oh, you might say that I'm flirty because I have many crushes. My cup has been filled by so many remarkable leaders. We have worked with remarkable leaders we have written about remarkable leaders. We have become really close friends to remarkable leaders. And they think about Herb Kelleher. We wrote doctoral dissertations on that company. We spent a lot of deeply rooted time in that organization, getting to know Herb, Colleen, a lot of the other leaders of that organization. And then once we wrote dissertations, we went in and wrote a popular press book.

Jackie Freiberg [00:06:06]:

We had a day a month in Herb Kelleher's office with him, a day a month for an entire year. That's huge. It was not a couple of hours with Herb Kelleher. It was from early in the morning until our flight left, going back to San Diego. They were in Dallas, still are. And we were in San Diego at the time. We would be talking so consistently and for so long and so engaged. I can remember times, Craig, where he would put us in his car, he would, this is back in the day, drive us out to the Runway.

Jackie Freiberg [00:06:42]:

We would walk up the set of stairs on the Runway into the airplane. Can you even imagine that happening today with TSA and all the security checks? That was back in the day. So Herb Kelleher has filled my cup. Ratan Tata, who's the patriarch of the Tada conglomerate in Southeast Asia. We've worked with him, we've known him, we've written about him, engaged with him. One of the most confident, humble souls and brilliant men I've ever met. Along with her, we've gotten to know Ken Blanchard, the 1 minute manager. I have so many leadership crushes.

Jackie Freiberg [00:07:18]:

Sagey leadership crushes.

Craig Anderson [00:07:20]:

No, I love it. And I would guess from each of those people, right, there's something different you can draw on aside from just the leadership brilliance of what made them so special as a leader. But there's different aspects that you can draw from in each one.

Jackie Freiberg [00:07:34]:

Absolutely. And I love that you even said that, because we have to remember people are leaders and people are messy. And in our messiness, we're going to show up and try and be truthful to what we think leadership is. But there are going to be times when we screw up because we're real, we're messy. We have good days, we have bad days. And so I think the thing that we have to be aware of when we're looking at people who we think are leaders in our lives, be truthful in terms of what you think leadership is and be honorable to those pillars of leadership, but also be willing to extend some grace to people. Because in life we have, like I said, highs and lows. And sometimes when some leader shows up messy, don't discount them, don't write them off unless they let success bloat them and confuse them, and then that's problematic.

Craig Anderson [00:08:30]:

Yeah, and that's. It's. And we'll get into this probably later. But that self awareness to understand when you're getting off the rails, because there is a lot. You know, I think one of the dangers in leadership is when you get to a certain level and you're successful, you suddenly lose all those people telling you what's not right. You start getting into this weird kind of death spiral of no truth speaking around you, and suddenly you start to believe your own press. And that's when the rails can go off, because you have to have people who are comfortable coming and telling you the emperor has no clothes. And there's a lot of leaders that kind of move over into that cult like status in a company, and then they lose themselves in it.

Jackie Freiberg [00:09:10]:

Oh, I've seen that so many times, Craig. I absolutely agree. So if we're talking leadership, I would say in order to really be identified as a leader, I don't think leadership is a title. It's not a position. It's not a badge. It's not ribbons. It is a choice that someone makes countless times in every single day to show up as. As a self aware, best version of themselves.

Jackie Freiberg [00:09:39]:

And I think it's also to, at the same time, be willing and able to draw the best out of everybody that's around you. And once you start to believe your own narrative up there that isn't accurate or isn't correct, or it's bloated and confused, and then you stop listening, you're screwed. You're just screwed. So your point is really important, especially to people who are sagey and getting a little bit confused and bloated and to people who are emerging and saying, what do I do to protect myself against losing my own sense of self awareness? Surround myself with people who dare to speak the truth in kindness and with clarity.

Craig Anderson [00:10:24]:

100%. All right. And you've worked around it, but I'm going to ask you to laser in to define leadership in ten words or less.

Jackie Freiberg [00:10:34]:

A choice to show up as the best version of you and draw the best version of others out as well.

Craig Anderson [00:10:41]:

Yeah.

Jackie Freiberg [00:10:42]:

How did I do? 1012.

Craig Anderson [00:10:44]:

Little over ten, but we'll take it because you're dead on. Right. It's so much about you, but also what you can pull from other people and helping people see, in my experience as a leader, is you can see some things in people that they may not see in themselves. And when you can help them draw and develop that, then you start to get the team around you that you need to achieve the bigger goal. And that's so important for leaders.

Jackie Freiberg [00:11:08]:

What is it? Is it Popovich who says he's really gifted, or his team says he's really gifted at giving you feedback? And he'll do feedback in three different parts. He'll say, this is what you need to change. I'm telling you that because I believe you can do it. And then three, what do I need to do to support you? Isn't that what you want from anybody around you? Hey, this is what needs to change. I believe you can do it. And what can I do to help?

Craig Anderson [00:11:38]:

Yeah, 100%. I love it. And just getting things out of the way so much leadership is just, how can I get things out of your way? Because I can't do everything.

Jackie Freiberg [00:11:48]:

You know, I said one of my favorite books is nuts. And not because we wrote it, but really, we were talking about courageous leadership back then. You know, that was 30 years ago, but we didn't call it courageous leadership then. You know, you get dare to lead and daring greatly and all. Now, courage is like, courage for me is a leadership superpower. Because if we can develop courage, whether in sagey, seasoned, experienced leaders and in emerging leaders, this world needs brave people. We need people who are willing to step into the breach, embrace the risk, embrace the uncertainty, dare to be intellectually, emotionally, psychologically, maybe even spiritually exposed a little bit.

Craig Anderson [00:12:36]:

Yeah.

Jackie Freiberg [00:12:36]:

When we can surround ourselves with a team of people like that, guess what happens? We dare to give people real feedback. We don't talk about those people, but not talk to those people.

Craig Anderson [00:12:48]:

Right? Yeah. I love it. So, Jackie, let's pivot now to talk about new leaders. You have a lot of connections with experienced leaders, but you've told stories. The story, you know, Herb Kelleher's story. When leaders are early on in those first leadership roles, they're not a CEO, they're a manager of six people. What are the challenges that new leaders face and just kind of stepping into that role? Because everything you're talking about is great, but you don't know that at 23 or 25.

Jackie Freiberg [00:13:18]:

That's a great question. One of the strategies that I love to share with any leader emerging or maybe a little bit more experienced, is try to get rid of the I know statement. You don't have to know. Leadership isn't about you having a position of authority and having all the answers. I think the best and most gifted high potential leaders are leaders who say I'm going to tap into the insights, the gifts, the talents, the ideas, the experiences of my team. Leadership today is really about collective genius, and it's being really good at mining the ideas from everybody. I heard Gary Vee say one of the best things he learned is when he's in a meeting, he will listen to the engagement around the room for 98% of the time that he's in that meeting. And part of that is he's watching the connections, watching people share, listening, and he's able then to process all that, connect the dots, and then at the end, so the last, what, 7% of the meeting, he says, okay, now, this is what I've heard, and I'm looking at it from this perspective.

Jackie Freiberg [00:14:40]:

What do you think you should do now? But he's pulling the pieces together versus showing up and thinking that he has to have all the answers. And so I would say to young, high potential emerging leaders, watch, listen, get really good at listening and finding ways to connect the dots. Ask a lot of questions and get rid of the statement, oh, yeah, I know, I know. Oh, I know, I know.

Craig Anderson [00:15:07]:

Yeah. And it's so interesting. I came up through sales, and one of the things that a lot of sales trainings will teach you is there's kind of a trajectory of a sales rep, a new sales rep who doesn't know the clients very well, doesn't know their problems very well. They ask tons of questions and generate lots of information that's going to make them successful in the sale. And then over time, they start to know all the. I know. Yeah. Okay.

Craig Anderson [00:15:30]:

I know. Your problem is this. Right? And their effectiveness starts to tail off because they're no longer listening, they're telling. And I think for a leader, it's the same thing. As long as you're asking questions, soliciting, you can't stay on top of everything. The higher up you go, the further removed you become from the detail. And you have to have people you can trust in that detail to tell you those things. And what you might remember from when you were at that level five years ago or ten years ago probably isn't Germane anymore.

Craig Anderson [00:15:57]:

So you have to just keep asking questions and keep that open mind. You can't be the genius in the room all the time as a leader.

Jackie Freiberg [00:16:05]:

No. And if you are the genius in the room, find yourself another room.

Craig Anderson [00:16:09]:

Yeah.

Jackie Freiberg [00:16:09]:

As Einstein says, if you're the genius, find yourself another. And, you know, there's actually, there's some data and research that says, when you actually think I know or say I know. Your brain automatically shuts down.

Craig Anderson [00:16:25]:

Wow.

Jackie Freiberg [00:16:26]:

It doesn't work like it would if you were like, really? Tell me why. I think in addition to courage for leaders, one of the other things that new and emerging leaders would be really smart to think about when they show up every day is showing up with not just a courageous mindset, but a curious mindset.

Craig Anderson [00:16:48]:

Yes.

Jackie Freiberg [00:16:49]:

How can you show up with a curiosity that says, tell me more? Why do you think that? What else? Why not, you know, what if? What if, what if five times? These aren't new ideas, but you're going to be far more successful if you actually use some of these timeless ideas.

Craig Anderson [00:17:10]:

Yeah, yeah. And it's. And I think a lot of traps that are. The trap that a lot of new leaders fall into is, well, now I'm supposed to be the person, and my job now is to tell people everything. And that's maybe a manager. It's not a leader. A leader is the one who's going to ask the questions, who's going to dig in, look for better, newer ways to do things, not just come in and start prescribing and dictating. That's just not going to build you long term success or as a leader because you will end up shooting yourself and your team in the foot, and you won't get that next level promotion because they're looking for people who are inspiring and developing and building teams.

Craig Anderson [00:17:49]:

So from your perspective and all the work you've talked to, people come up to you after your keynotes and say, this is my struggle. What is probably the biggest mistake a new leader can make in those early leadership roles?

Jackie Freiberg [00:18:03]:

Being held back by a bad boss.

Craig Anderson [00:18:05]:

Oh, wow. Say more.

Jackie Freiberg [00:18:08]:

I think oftentimes we feel like we're helpless in a toxic and unhealthy and unaffirming a negative organizational environment. And I get it. We all have to pay the bills. I mean, we were talking about that earlier. What are we going to do to pivot our businesses? But I think sometimes we build a narrative in our heads that says, you know, this is all I got, so I'm just gonna have to put my head down. I'm gonna have to grind. Well, you know what? When we put our head down and we grind and we allow someone to mistreat us or to allow their toxic energy to spill all over us, our productivity will be depleted. And we talked about this earlier by, you know, up to 70%.

Jackie Freiberg [00:18:50]:

So it's sucking the life and the energy out of you. If you have a bad boss, don't tolerate it. Get on the lookout, start looking for something new, or surround yourself with colleagues who can help you put that bad boss in perspective.

Craig Anderson [00:19:08]:

Yeah. And it's so hard because there are. I talk a lot about kind of this crisis in leadership. Companies create by allowing bad bosses to exist, but a lot of times the bad boss is that way because the company didn't develop them. And then they're just right there and they're terrible. And then you start having these generational leadership problems because now I'm learning bad behaviors. You have to step away from that. There's a certain amount of stoic philosophy.

Craig Anderson [00:19:35]:

You almost have to adapt to say, I can control my reaction to this bad boss, and I have choices. I can work around them. I can leave. I can try and find other areas of support. As you noted, I can call their boss. That's a bold move. But sometimes that's what you have to do, because they may not be aware. Maybe they're a bad boss, too.

Craig Anderson [00:19:52]:

Who knows? But we have these problems in leadership where bad bosses beget bad bosses, because you learn to work in that environment and get things done in that environment. So, yes, to your point, find a way to free yourself from that, even if it means taking the big risk and saying, I'm out of here. I'm not going to deal with this.

Jackie Freiberg [00:20:09]:

I am on board 100% with you, Craig. And I would say that therein lies the whole need for courage. Global leaders were asked, what should the future of leadership look like? And you know what they said? Hands down, hands up, hands down. They said, we need brave leaders, braver leaders, and there we need courageous leaders. It's a courageous move to say, I have a bad boss, and what can I do? Can I go to the training and development office and maybe look at some leadership development or some sort of training that I could participate in to see if my head and my heart are in the right place or if I'm the person that needs adjusting or if they're the person that needs adjusting. Can I look for options in other organizations? Can I look at transferring to other departments? Don't consider yourself stuck in a dead end place. Do some homework, be courageous, and find out what your options are.

Craig Anderson [00:21:11]:

Yeah, I love it.

Jackie Freiberg [00:21:12]:

They'll kill you. It'll suck the life out of you, and it'll tarnish your career, your brand. Anybody who I've ever worked with who says, I worked for a really bad person, a really bad manager, and I wished I had stayed longer, no one says that they all stay. I wished I had gotten out sooner. But I didn't have that.

Craig Anderson [00:21:34]:

Yeah, and you've got to make the move. So let's say we figured out that move. We've made the move, we've gotten out from under that bad boss, changed the trajectory of our career. Now im sitting in that big chair. Now I am the CEO. When were sitting in that role, what do you think for a successful CEO that you work with? What do you think the key lessons are that theyve learned along the way, maybe one or two that have really helped them become the successful leader they are today?

Jackie Freiberg [00:22:02]:

I think one of the best models and ive seen so many do this, but I think its humility. I think what they've learned is they've learned that the only reason why they are successful is because they have learned and they have been filled by others. So their cup is now full. And so now it's their turn to swing back around and start filling other people's cups. It's about showing up every day knowing that you're competent and you're confident in those skills. But going back to what we talked about earlier, Craig, you don't know it all, and there's always something new to learn. So make sure that not only are you competent and confident, but you're also humble enough to be curious to the core and continue to ask great questions and dare to surround yourself. Here's the courageous part.

Jackie Freiberg [00:22:57]:

Dare to surround yourself with people who will tell you that was a bad move that didn't work. Or guess what? You ought to go do a double take with this person because how you landed on them, it didn't quite work. And they're confused and they're building a narrative in their head that is not the truth, but it's very real for them. And so that's going to break down the relationship that you got with them and it's totally going to impact their performance.

Craig Anderson [00:23:23]:

Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. I love that idea because you're so close to a lot of these leaders that you've worked with and you've spoken to and with one thing we haven't touched on, I always talk about kind of competence and calm to be a successful leader. And I have not run an organization of 150,000 people, but I've run an organization of 150 people. And that's a lot of pressure at that level. When you start thinking about these global CEO's, when I start thinking about like Jamie Dimon, who's one of my leadership crushes, right. What do you see in those CEO's that allows them to successfully carry the weight of that role.

Jackie Freiberg [00:24:02]:

Wisdom.

Craig Anderson [00:24:03]:

Okay.

Jackie Freiberg [00:24:04]:

Wisdom in knowing that it's a collective initiative. And when you feel like your tank is empty, who's your buffer? Who is your calming source? And make sure you have a direct link, a direct connection, a lifeline to a couple of those people. Because, look, any organization that is successful over the long haul is not successful because of one leader. It's successful because of a collaborative, of really efficient, really respectful, really remarkable relationships that are coming together to. To make good stuff happen, that are coming together to call out one another's b's in truth and honesty, but also in kindness. I think it's about having a support system.

Craig Anderson [00:25:05]:

Yeah. And realizing it isn't just, even though sometimes it may feel it's all up to you. It's really not all up to you.

Jackie Freiberg [00:25:12]:

Yeah. No, it's. You've got a board that should be supporting you that you should have at that level. You should have some sounding boards that, that are in all kinds of different spaces of expertise. So if you've got a financial issue and you need a really brilliant financial wizard and expert, you better have a source over there. You need a legal expert, you better have one over there. You need a marketing expert, you better have one there. You need a salesperson, you better have one there.

Jackie Freiberg [00:25:41]:

You've got to create a support system that you're confident in, but they're in. I'm going to. I'm going to say it again. You've got to be courageous enough to call it out when it's not right and it's not working. And don't turn a blind eye to something that's not working within your organization. And oftentimes we're so busy and we're so stretched that we're like, that'll take care of itself, I hope. Most of the time it doesn't.

Craig Anderson [00:26:06]:

Almost never, does it? I think one of the best pieces of advice I ever had from a boss was problems don't age well.

Jackie Freiberg [00:26:14]:

I love that. That's good.

Craig Anderson [00:26:16]:

You've got to deal with them because they only get worse. They only metastasize. Bad performers don't suddenly figure it out, become good performers. Financial problems don't suddenly work themselves out. You never make up losses by rep volume. Right. So it's, you've got to deal with the stuff that is set in front of you, and you can't, you don't have the choice as a leader of what problems you're going to solve, because all those problems are going to come to you, to your point, have I brought the right people around me at the table who are going to give me the wisdom, who are going to give me the knowledge and experience that I can say so and so you're my person who was my go to on fixing financial issues. You're my go to on legal issues.

Craig Anderson [00:26:56]:

And I have confidence that I've built a team around me that's going to help me solve the problems so that I can make sure things are getting done and still keep working on moving the business forward, not constantly just falling into that pit of the day to day problems.

Jackie Freiberg [00:27:11]:

Yeah. Think about the conductor of an orchestra. The conductor makes it all happen. And without that conductor, the symphony is not going to work. But we need that conductor. But the conductor is not playing any of those instruments. Isn't that what a really gifted leader does? Although I will say I'm not a musician, but my gut tells me that the person that is orchestrating at all, the conductor, has a lot of. They have to know how to play a lot of those instruments.

Jackie Freiberg [00:27:44]:

Right? So they've been there. They've done that. I mean, that's the thing, too. I think the most successful organizations out there are successful because the leaders not only know how to conduct everybody's performance and everybody's nuances, but they've also been there and done that. They're not saying, okay, you go forth and you do great work. They say, let us work this together. I mean, I think about Ratan Tada at the Tada conglomerate, and he would walk into meetings all the time and say, what do you think? What if? Why not? What else? And he had the answer, but he didn't want to put it out there. He wanted to draw better and greater ideas and insights from the team around him.

Craig Anderson [00:28:32]:

100%. Great. Well, we always like to wrap up Jackie with, if you could give one piece of advice to that leader in their first leadership role, that would make them better, calmer, more effective, whatever it is. What do you think that one piece of advice is for that new leader that would really change their trajectory?

Jackie Freiberg [00:28:55]:

I'm going to go back to what we were just talking about. Makes a more seasoned executive successful, and I would say, don't create a team and surround yourself with a team when you have to do it right now, because you want to start to become an aficionado of leadership and look around, and if you see someone who really does exhibit the right kinds of behaviors, attitudes, strategies that you'd like to learn from, ask that person if you can be a mentee and start building your own little advisory board. It doesn't have to be formal. It can be informal. But make sure you like these people, make sure you respect these people, and make sure you even love them to some degree. It's nice to work with people who we like, we love, and we respect.

Craig Anderson [00:29:51]:

So with all the things we've talked about today, if you think to that new leader, what's the one piece of advice you would give them that would help them be successful or efficient or just feel better about what they're doing every day?

Jackie Freiberg [00:30:05]:

I think I'm going to go back to what we were talking about, even for seasoned executives and leaders, and I would say to someone who is high potential, emerging, look at people around you and study them. And if you see someone who you like, you respect as a leader, then by all means start to spend more time with them. Because we started earlier in talking about the fact that you're known by the company you keep. Hang out with. Surround yourself with people who are going to draw good things out of you, and so they'll fill your cup. And don't limit it to one person, two people. Diversify. I mean, go to people who are younger than you, who are your age, who are older than you, who are of different genders, who are of different cultures, and create your own little mini advisory board as early as you can do it, before you have to do it because you want to.

Craig Anderson [00:31:03]:

Yeah, I agree. And I think back to something we talked about before we started recording about. You're the average of the five people you surround yourself with. And if you can get that great advisory board around you, it's going to rise your level to their level. So that's a really good goal.

Jackie Freiberg [00:31:18]:

I love to tell my children all the time, and I love to tell because my children are emerging leaders, or quite frankly, I think they are leaders. But I, and I love to tell just leaders all the time. Some of the best leaders I've ever met are leaders who are interested, which means they're curious, right? They're going to ask a lot of questions and capital a, capital n, capital d. And they're also interesting. So you can't just show up and ask a bunch of questions. You have to be someone who contributes as well. So be both and interested and interesting.

Craig Anderson [00:31:53]:

Love it. Jackie, so much great information. I know you do a lot of different things. You've got your keynote speaking. You have speeches made. Simple. How can people find you and follow you if they want to learn more about what you have going on?

Jackie Freiberg [00:32:07]:

LinkedIn Jackie Freiberg would be great. And then our website is Epic Work Epic Life. All one word, epicworkepiclife.com. The other thing that we're doing is we're adding on our services. So not only do we speak at workshops, keynotes, associations, companies, but we're also, we have a service where we teach people how to give speeches because we know that 80% of the population have some kind of public speaking anxiety. And whether that anxiety is low, medium or high, it will impact your career trajectory. So you don't have to ever be afraid to deliver a speech, give an introduction or pitch a product. You should be trained and equipped to do that.

Jackie Freiberg [00:32:55]:

It's a skill that can be trained, so we do that as well.

Craig Anderson [00:32:58]:

Fantastic. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for being part of executive evolution. I really appreciate you sharing your insights today.

Jackie Freiberg [00:33:04]:

Oh, it's been so fun. You're so easy to talk to, Craig. Anytime. I'd love it.

Craig Anderson [00:33:09]:

Great. Thanks.

Jackie Freiberg [00:33:10]:

You're welcome.

Craig Anderson [00:33:15]:

I really appreciated all of Jackie's insights today. Honestly, when I booked this with her, I had no idea she had written that book about Southwest Airlines. But what a story to hear and to have that kind of access to the leadership at that level must have been amazing. As always, I like to take the three key takeaways in the areas of confidence, competence and calm to share with you. In the area of confidence, Jackie talked about how leaders need to watch and listen and learn to connect the dots. That's confidence is when you can start to see the big picture, starting, weaving together everything that's going on. A lot of times people feel like they need to be in a leadership role and deep in the weeds, but you don't need to be, really need to be connected to your leadership team. See the dots, look out into the future.

Craig Anderson [00:34:00]:

And that's really something that gives you confidence to make decisions, to lead your team forward in the area of competence. This was something I had not heard of before, but I loved it. Get rid of I know statements. Competence means for many people, I have to have all the answers. And leaders, you don't have to have all the answers. Get rid of those I know statements so that people aren't thinking you already have the answers because then they're not going to answer the questions for you. So you need to be open. Get rid of those I know statements.

Craig Anderson [00:34:28]:

And then finally, in the area of calm, I'm going to go back to where I started at the beginning of the podcast. You don't need to accept working in a toxic environment you might not be able to get out of it in a day, you might not be able to get out of it a week. But you need to make the effort to find a way to get out from under toxic relationships. It's going to ruin your career. You're not learning any leadership lessons. You're not growing. So it's so crucial. Leaders, if you are in a bad environment under a bad leader, make it your goal to get out from under it.

Craig Anderson [00:34:57]:

Thanks again, Jackie, for such a great interview. Remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time. All it takes is developing your confidence, competence and calm. Have a great weekend.