Craig Anderson [00:00:00]:

I looked the sales reps directly in the face and said, if we're going to only compete on price, then I can just hire a bunch of flying monkeys to sell this product. Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. That was not one of my finest moments. It was a stressful time in our business. We were under a lot of pressure to deliver on margins. We are under a lot of pressure to deliver on volume, and we are dealing with a lot of price pressure in the marketplace, small price pressure, but it was enough.

Craig Anderson [00:00:41]:

We had a very unsophisticated customer base. And I was frustrated because I was in between sales reps who I empathized with when I agreed with to an extent, and senior leaders who were pushing that we had to grow this business at that price and would not budge. It was a real struggle for me, and rather than admitting that struggle to my team, I took it out on them and I came up with that I could hire flying monkeys quote. It was not one of my greatest moments as a leader and one that I think about a lot when I'm talking about what great leadership is. And I just always envision my team listening to these podcasts going, what does he really think? I remember when he called us a bunch of flying monkeys. We always make mistakes as leaders, and knowing those mistakes, building that self awareness is what's really important. And that is just one of the many topics that I talk about on this week's episode with Kyle McDowell. Kyle is a former Fortune 10 executive.

Craig Anderson [00:01:36]:

He's a speaker, he's a leadership coach, and he is the author of Begin With We, a great book about key leadership principles that he himself developed. And he's going to tell that story in this episode. So let's jump right in to this week's episode of Executive Evolution with Kyle McDowell. Kyle, welcome to the Executive Evolution podcast. I'm really excited to have you on today and talk about what's going on with you.

Kyle McDowell [00:02:02]:

Hey, Craig, man, it is really an honor to be with you today. Thank you for having me.

Craig Anderson [00:02:06]:

Absolutely. Well, you've got such a great career and I love how you've pivoted. Like I did, kind of a corporate career and actually helping a lot more people, doing something for people instead of doing something for a business. So as we dive into this, I'm really excited to hear about your journey through. Through your career and into the book, into the End of the business that you've built, has it been everything you've hoped it would be? Making that transition, it was incredibly and.

Kyle McDowell [00:02:29]:

Still is incredibly difficult. I grew up in corporate America. I began my journey in that world. I just turned 18. And when I stepped away from the corporate landscape to start my own firms is around the time I wrote my book was 28 years later. So going from leading tens of thousands of people with an army of kind of people around you to help get things done, to help attack whatever the issue is that we're trying to get after is a very different paradigm than being a solopreneur. I have a team of four now, whereas in the past, as I mentioned, several thousand. It's a very difficult transition for me.

Kyle McDowell [00:03:08]:

The pull, the magnet that has kept me moving forward is the impact that I see that the book is having, that my keynotes are having, and that just fuels me to keep going.

Craig Anderson [00:03:18]:

When I made the same, a similar transition, it is kind of humbling one to go to Purdue, it all yourself, but it was really. I spent so much of my career helping people grow in their careers but for a company. And I realized I can actually do this in a way that's helping people grow for themselves and really start helping lift people up because there's just so much opportunity out there to do that right now.

Kyle McDowell [00:03:40]:

There's no better feeling in the world. There's just not from lifting someone else up, especially if you can see the path that they're on has some type of similarity or overlap to the path that you've been on. The mistakes you made, the lessons you learned, the trials that you went through. If you can help someone before they're able to experience some of that or at least give them some guidance, there's no better feeling in the world in my mind.

Craig Anderson [00:04:00]:

Yeah, No, I agree. It's very fulfilling. So here's to success.

Kyle McDowell [00:04:05]:

Amen.

Craig Anderson [00:04:06]:

So we'll keep going. Well, hey, Kyle, we always like to open this up with the lightning round. Are you ready to dive in?

Kyle McDowell [00:04:12]:

Let's do it. Let's roll.

Craig Anderson [00:04:13]:

All right, so barring your own book, what is the best leadership book you have ever read?

Kyle McDowell [00:04:18]:

Without question, for me, man, it is From Values to Action by a fella named Harry Kramer. Harry is the former chairman and CEO of Baxter International multi billion dollar healthcare firm. And I happened to cross paths with him when I went to business school. He's a professor of mine. He's my leadership crush. I mean, to be honest with you and I, he was the guy that taught me and his book goes so much more in depth into this. But I the surface, his book taught me, you can be a human, be human, and still be a great and impactful leader. You don't have to be a robot.

Kyle McDowell [00:04:53]:

You don't have to have the fanciest shirt, shoes, all, you know, this expansive vocabulary that there is tremendous value in being just a normal dude. And I just have a ton of respect for him.

Craig Anderson [00:05:04]:

I remember early on in my career so much trying to see who is that successful leader who still has, you know, a strong family intact. He's a successful leader. He's not a jerk. Right. He's actually earnestly interested in both the business success and success and your success. And sometimes that was a hard thing to find as a junior executive, to really find those people out there.

Kyle McDowell [00:05:26]:

Well, I don't know about you, and I would love to hear your perspective on this. I would say the most important lessons that I was able to learn throughout that 28 year period came from leaders that I did not want to be like, I did not want to emulate. They were responsible in many cases for me feeling less than adequate, less than capable, and inferior in many ways. I didn't want others to feel the way that I felt as a result of someone else, quote unquote, leading them. So my biggest lessons throughout that entire career, for my entire career, almost all come from examples that I didn't want to replicate.

Craig Anderson [00:06:03]:

That becomes a lot of fodder for my writing and my teaching is the people who really were the bad examples. You can get there that way, but you don't have to. Right? We can do it. My favorite story is a guy who was higher up on the food chain than me and would look at us and say, we don't talk. I don't talk to you. I talk to your boss. You talk to my people.

Kyle McDowell [00:06:25]:

Wait, what? Somebody would literally say that to you?

Craig Anderson [00:06:27]:

Oh, literally looked me in the eye and told me that. Yeah. And just said, you know, you don't work up through me. So I said, okay, great. Fast forward several years as the industry we were in went through several layoffs. He calls me because he's networking to find something. I still happen to have a role at that point. And he, I pick up and I talk to him.

Craig Anderson [00:06:45]:

He goes, you know, thanks for taking my call. I've really had a hard time getting a hold of people. And I was like, he really still doesn't get it. I wasn't even surprised.

Kyle McDowell [00:06:55]:

How hard, Craig, did you have to fight to say, well, I don't talk to you, I only talk to your leader like that. Had there had to be some karma in the back of your mind saying wow, boy, this feels ironic.

Craig Anderson [00:07:05]:

There was. But I tell you what, the karma was being nice, right? The karma was treating him like a human being and saying, you know, he knows how he treated me, I know how he treated me. But by me coming at it that way, it's fine. And he really had no clue why no one was calling him back. And I'm like, I can tell you.

Kyle McDowell [00:07:23]:

But I think that points to something that I, I've heard you talk about more than once and that is the ability to be self reflective as a leader, you know, to go inside how am I treating people? Am I making good of my commitments? Am I someone that can be trusted? Am I someone that can be relied upon? And it sounds like this fella certainly didn't have those, those moments of introspection. And by the way, to loop back to, to the question that you asked about a favorite leadership book, From Values to Action. Kramer talks about his four values that are really, you know, absolutely essential requirements to be a great leader. And one of them is self reflection. And I just think that's, that is a superpower if you can find, I call it the mirror of truth. If you can have either a confidant who will tell it, tell it to you like it really is not what you want to hear is one angle or another angle is if you're able to set your ego aside and have a real conversation with yourself about what it is that you're putting out into the team, what it is you're putting out into the world and is it aligned with who you want to be perceived at, Maybe from a leadership legacy perspective or just from a human legacy. Am I doing things that would make me proud? When I look back at the end.

Craig Anderson [00:08:27]:

Of this career, that's really the key, right Is when I'm sitting down at the end of my career, am I going to think back to, you know, how did I impact people? That's a true piece of leadership. But the interesting thing was that guy, when it was going on, was seen as a huge, well performing leader because he was getting rid. Everyone was afraid of him.

Kyle McDowell [00:08:45]:

What a shame.

Craig Anderson [00:08:46]:

But he was, he was feted at the organization. It's tough.

Kyle McDowell [00:08:50]:

There was a point in my career when I really had this epiphany. That kind of, it was a monumental transformation in how I led. I was that guy. I banged my fist on the desk. I raised my voice. Why? Because that was the example I had been given throughout my career. And I'd seen very successful executives be that person barking, screaming threats, you know, all those things. And there was a point at which I had to just press pause.

Kyle McDowell [00:09:15]:

I'd stepped away from the corporate world. I left for a couple of. I wanted it to be a couple of months. It ended up being a couple of weeks, because I got a role that was really exciting. But during that little transition, I wanted to reach out and connect with people who I felt had a lot of respect for me as a leader. We'd worked together, and it turned out I didn't have a lot of respect. I was feared. It was something that I did not realize until people were open enough.

Kyle McDowell [00:09:40]:

This is. Well, after we had any type of reporting relationship, they would be open to say, dude, you kind of alienated me. Or I had examples given to me of specific meetings, of course, that I didn't remember at all. But I handled in a way that left them feeling less than adequate. Years later, they're still bringing this stuff up, which is powerful. In a way, it helps me turn the page and be a better leader, be a better person, but also a bit embarrassing when I look back at maybe how I handled some of those situations.

Craig Anderson [00:10:06]:

I have a few greatest worst hits that haunt me when I think back, Especially when I'm sitting here talking about this stuff, saying, oh, this is great leadership, and all this kind of stuff. And in the back of my head, I can think of everyone who ever worked for me queuing in. Remember that told that time he told us he could get flying monkeys to sell this product at that price? I remember that, Craig, really well.

Kyle McDowell [00:10:27]:

Did you really say that?

Craig Anderson [00:10:28]:

I really did. I really did. And you know what they did? They bought me a flying monkey that they shotgunned into my office one day.

Kyle McDowell [00:10:37]:

Does that not speak to the relationship you had? That. That seems like. Yeah, yeah, okay, that's. You made a mistake.

Craig Anderson [00:10:43]:

It was not a great day. It was a mistake. No, but it haunts me to this day that I said that. You know, it was like, that's not who I wanted to be. But I remember so strongly that that's who I was on that day. Most of the time. I really did try to be the leader with empathy, the leader who was trying to learn from the team, to help the team grow and all those kinds of good things. But that was just one day when it was just a bad week, and we were under a lot of pressure to grow at a.

Craig Anderson [00:11:08]:

At a margin. That's kind of the Tough part, right? You've got the rules from up here. When you're in a corporate environment, right? They're saying, go, and we've got to have these margins and this volume and all those kinds of things. But then you also know your team is like, that's a pretty heavy lift to get to. How do you tear that. That piece between trying to keep them motivated, but also trying to manage expectations? Because we were. We're all trying to hit whatever the quarterly number is when you're in a big corporate environment.

Kyle McDowell [00:11:32]:

I was with three Fortune 10 companies throughout my career, and there was never a time where anyone would say, never mind the targets that we've set. Just give a great experience to those we serve or make sure the product or service we sell is. Is excellent. The priority was always set, which, you know, at times would be frustrating to me, but I learned over time, and I'd love to get your perspective on this throughout my career as I became more comfortable in my own shoes. I've heard you touch on this as well. To this day, man, I still suffer from imposter syndrome from time to time. Yeah, I certainly suffered from it at. At nauseum ad nauseam, throughout really long stretches of my career.

Kyle McDowell [00:12:14]:

So when. When the transition or the. My ability at some point to turn those demands that were delivered from on high, somewhere in the ivory tower said, okay, here's your new target, or here's your new goal. Go deliver this. I learned to turn those from stressful situation to. To galvanizing events. So what. What does that mean? In the past, I would just call a meeting, get the team together, and say, here's the new target.

Kyle McDowell [00:12:40]:

We're going to hit this, or else, let's go transitioning from that to here's the target, and boy, is it a big one. And I got to be honest, guys, I'm not quite sure how we're going to get there, but if there's a team that I want to be associated with to get there, it's this team. And we may not get there, but it will not be for a lack of effort. It won't be for us helping each other out, picking each other up, challenging each other to be better. So I like to turn those kind of stressful things into, all right, cool. This is how we're. This is what we have in front of us. And one of my principles is we embrace challenge.

Kyle McDowell [00:13:11]:

So when that comes, turning people around from, gosh, this seems unfair. And by the way, when the leader pretends that there's not a Real risk in front of us or there's nothing troubling or a giant hill to climb. There's no relatability, no trust. The people on the team are like, this guy just doesn't get it. He's a robot. And I think that is not a sustainable relationship. But in turn, on the, on the contrary, when I say, hey, we're going to lock arms and we're going to do our damnedest to hit this target, and then wherever the chips fall, we'll rally from there. But just know that we're all in it together.

Kyle McDowell [00:13:40]:

I think that is how you establish trust with those you lead.

Craig Anderson [00:13:43]:

When I hear you say that and you talk about that pivot between the two examples, right? The real thing that's different is you're talking about we, right? It's not, you all are going to go do this, right? We are all going to do it. And it's a heavy lift for all of us and we've got to find a way. But you know what? I'm going to be right there with you. And that's what they need to hear. And I think it's helpful when you're genuinely saying, as a leader, look, we're all in this together, sink or swim. I'm not saying this is a cakewalk, but what I am saying is we're going to fight hard and I'm going to get you what you need. Because to me, so much of our role as leaders is we got to get the stuff out of the way so they can perform. Right?

Kyle McDowell [00:14:18]:

Preach, Craig. I say this, I put it this way, and sometimes I get some eye rolls. I think leaders have two responsibilities. That's it, just two responsibilities. The first is to get all the noise out of the way. The things that stand in the way of our teams, delivering excellence, whatever those are, they could, it could be as benign as, like, we don't have accurate enough reporting to make decisions, or our work schedules are not conducive to the type of candidate that we hire. The profile, it can be any spectrum of things, but it's my job to get as many of those out of the system, out of the way of my team. And then my second responsibility is to inspire and motivate in spite of those things that I couldn't remove.

Kyle McDowell [00:15:00]:

It's impossible. I mean, it wouldn't be called work if I was able to get everything out of the way. So it's naive to think that that should even be a goal. But once I have had that feedback loop from my team, the things that are standing in the way from us being excellent. It's my job to get those out of the way. It's my job. And if I can't, I need to be open and honest with the team and say, man, I tried like hell, but for whatever the reason, and be open and transparent about it. Okay, but this is what's left now.

Kyle McDowell [00:15:24]:

Let's lock arms. Let's go. So I think those are the two roles that we. That's all we have to do. It's not easy, by the way, but that is all we have to do.

Craig Anderson [00:15:31]:

I think a lot of leaders end up putting more barriers up, right? Well, I've got to get this more reporting. You've got to give me this. And I've done it too, right? We've got to do these things. And you start creating structures that aren't actually growing the business. They're just growing data or growing information or growing control or whatever it is you're trying to do, right? And so you start creating the wrong things. Because I don't think we do a great job when we develop young leaders to help them see that these are the things you have to do. And they see themselves more as managers. But I'd be interested because you came up through that system.

Craig Anderson [00:16:05]:

What was your experience as a first leader? What kind of support system did you find when you were kind of said, when they pointed the finger at you and said, kyle, you're promoted. Go.

Kyle McDowell [00:16:15]:

My first reaction was, me. Are you sure? As I mentioned, imposter syndrome was a real thing for me. But I found, man, I had an interesting kind of beginning at this. I found myself leading about 600 people at the age of 25. And in hindsight, looking back, it's like, who in the world would have given me that responsibility? It occurred to me very early on, although I didn't spend a lot of energy trying to address it. But it did occur to me very, very early on. This is probably something that's more widespread than anybody would be proud to admit, and that is most organizations, we do a really great job saying, hey, welcome to the team. This is your list of responsibilities.

Kyle McDowell [00:16:53]:

Here are your SOPs, your policies and procedures. We do a great job, by and large. For the most part. We do a great job instructing and educating and lifting up team members to do the job. The X's and O's Right. Most organizations do a terrible job teaching people how to lead. We take someone who is reasonably successful or even wildly successful in their role as an individual contributor. We promote them into A position of authority.

Kyle McDowell [00:17:19]:

Now, I won't say leadership, but a position of authority. They stumble. They have all kinds of issues with their team. The results aren't what we expected. And then the person or group of people that hired this person look at each other and say, well, what happened? Clearly, he can't cut it. This isn't the right person. But we didn't do anything. We just expected him or her to become a fantastic leader on day one.

Kyle McDowell [00:17:39]:

And it just doesn't work that way.

Craig Anderson [00:17:40]:

Yeah, we tell them all the rules, right? Here's how to hire, here's how to fire, here's to do this, here's to do that. But the mentoring, the leadership training, the things we've been talking about, the connection, right? As you think about, like, that part of your experience, and you think about your book, how much of some of your lessons, the 10 lessons in your book, comes directly from that piece of your experience?

Kyle McDowell [00:18:04]:

100%. 100% of the book. And if you allow me, maybe just a bit of context for your audience. I stepped away from the corporate world. This was back in around maybe 2017. And at that point, I had led thousands of people. The role that I had left just prior to stepping away had a team of probably 3,500 people. And I stepped away because my apathy had reached such a boiling point that I really started to question everything.

Kyle McDowell [00:18:30]:

The whole corporate machine. Everybody was drinking the corporate Kool Aid, but nobody wanted to admit it and talk about it. We weren't transparent about our actual feelings of what's going on. Everybody kept their head down, and we just shuffled through the day. I just came to this point where, man, I realized, this is soul sucking. This is not the recipe for a life well lived or a life fulfilled. So I stepped away. I ended up taking a role just a number of weeks later.

Kyle McDowell [00:18:55]:

It was not a secret that there was a cultural transformation in need, by the way. It was to lead an organization of about 15,000 people. The hiring manager, the fella I ended up reporting to, was pretty outspoken that there are a lot of opportunities from a leadership perspective. So I took the role. I'm in this position for maybe 60 days at the time. Of course, I've gotten to know my directs, but I had. I really didn't know many people beyond that. And I needed to understand the temperature, like, what's happening? I know I got this group of seven or eight directs, and I know what they're telling me, but is that reality? So I called the top 50 or 60 leaders of.

Kyle McDowell [00:19:31]:

Of my Organization into a meeting. We all flew into Lawrence, Kansas, and I viewed that meeting as our jumping off point. It was my opportunity to get in front of this team and say, here's who we are. Here are the types of things I want us to be known for. Here's how we treat one another. First. That was the primary objective, was like, here's how we're going to treat one another, not our clients. I'm not even worried about that yet.

Kyle McDowell [00:19:52]:

But how we treat each other behind the scenes has such a direct impact on how we treat our clients. So let's start there. And Craig, the night before, I was going to meet with these. With these leaders. I'm in my hotel room, and I was terrified. I didn't know what I was going to say other than, hey, this is a new beginning, maybe share a little bit about myself. But I had this epiphany that evening. And the epiphany was, if you want the same results and if you want to feel the same level of apathy and disengagement, frustration, the soul sucking, I talked about, you know, what to do.

Kyle McDowell [00:20:22]:

Just do the same thing. That's easy. Just do the same thing. But if you want a different experience, different outcome, a higher sense of fulfillment, you actually want to connect with those that you lead. I had to do something different. So that night and my laptop in my lap, I'm working on a PowerPoint. So. So the thought process went like this.

Kyle McDowell [00:20:39]:

What are the things that have driven you nuts over the last two decades that now you're in a position with this massive team to do differently? Be the leader you never had, lead in a way that you never led. What are those things? First thing popped in my mind was, man, I've seen so many leaders just do the wrong thing, do things that were at best sketchy, at worst unethical. Boom. I have my first principle. We do the right thing always. And I continued. It was probably a two or three hour. I started around midnight because we had a dinner that evening.

Kyle McDowell [00:21:12]:

I finished around 2, 3 in the morning. And I was left with 10 sentences. And those 10 sentences did, and they still do, begin with the word we. And I wasn't super creative then, not super creative now. I had the 10 we's. And each one of those principles were born out of my frustration or the things that I'd witnessed throughout my career that stood in the way of us achieving excellence as a team, not as an individual. So every one of those things in the book, man, Those concepts, all 10 ways, the principles they are all born out of, not, we should do this, they're born out of. I've seen it done the opposite or not done at all.

Kyle McDowell [00:21:45]:

And this is how we're going to go forward.

Craig Anderson [00:21:47]:

And as you talked through that with these 50 or 60 people who probably some were cynical, some were jaundiced, some said, well, here we go. A lot of times I talk to people that they lay this stuff out and then they think everybody gets it. So what was the first reaction? And then how did you keep it going?

Kyle McDowell [00:22:04]:

What happens too often is a leader or a person in a position of authority. They get a coach or they read a book, or they go to a seminar and they come back to the office and they say, here's who we are. This is the change we're making. And it lasts about a week. I would not put myself in a position that my. My principles were just hollow words on a wall. So when I shared those 10 principles, I would say half the room was really energized and optimistic. I could see it on their faces.

Kyle McDowell [00:22:31]:

I would say a quarter of the room was skeptical but open minded. And then there was a group that was downright, this guy's full of it, this guy. We've seen this guy in his stark shirt and his shiny shoe, like, we know this routine, we know this movie ends. By the way, my Direct Reports Combined had a tenure of about 12 years in their roles, so they had already forgotten more about their roles than I ever had had known at that point. So it was important for me to establish these principles of who we are, how we will behave. But I know, I knew I couldn't, I couldn't force it. I couldn't make it be right. So I intentionally shared those principles.

Kyle McDowell [00:23:10]:

And I said, guys, make no mistake, I will hold you accountable to these. I will hold you accountable to them, but I expect you to do the same to me. I literally said, I want you to grab me by the ear if you see me behaving in a way contrary to any one of these 10 principles. And then I just stepped back. One of the fellows in the room asked for my PowerPoint that evening. And he framed it in a way that was like, really exciting. He wanted to share it with his team because he wanted to kind of evangelize these principles. He later admitted to me that he only wanted the PowerPoint to check the properties under file to see if I actually created the document or something that I lifted or plagiarized from somewhere else.

Kyle McDowell [00:23:47]:

So the skepticism was very, very high. And as a Matter of fact, it was probably a year plus later before I genuinely believed that the principles, the 10 we's, were having an impact. I finally grabbed a woman for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect. She was a direct report of mine, Lori. And I said, lori, this. Is this working? Is it happening? And she gave me all the happy answers. And I said, don't brown nose me. Tell me the truth.

Kyle McDowell [00:24:13]:

I need to know, is this really working? Are we on to something? And she said, damn it. She got so irate. She's like, damn it, they are working. This is we. We have to continue this. And from there, I would show up at any one of my offices. I had 11 locations. I would see signage.

Kyle McDowell [00:24:27]:

I had 10 ways signs, 10 weeks, puzzles, coffee mugs were coming out. The team put together these bracelets that I still wear. This is seven years later. And I started to see it taking hold. So much so, man, the icing on the cake was when, without my guidance or direction, my team came to me and said, we want to put the 10 we's in our performance appraisals. This is how we want to hold people accountable to being this team member. It was a long, long journey. And I'll tell you, brother, even now with the book being a Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller, there are pockets of time where I'm like, is this really working? Is it resonating? And then I'll get a DM from a reader or I'll get an email from somebody that's like, hey, you've changed how I view leadership.

Kyle McDowell [00:25:08]:

You've changed my team. You've changed how I'm raising my children is a comment I've gotten more than once. So those are the things that kind of fuel me when I have those moments of imposter syndrome or doubt.

Craig Anderson [00:25:19]:

Here you are, you've got all this experience, and that darn imposter syndrome will still show up.

Kyle McDowell [00:25:24]:

And I'm convinced that those who deny that it exists or say they don't suffer from it or have never suffered from it, they're just being dishonest. They're just being dishonest. I just don't know how to say it now. Certainly over time, people become much more comfortable, maybe with the experience that I've had and especially now with the book and in other things, maybe could argue that it's silly and unfounded that I feel that way occasionally. And certainly I'm. I'm. I'm guessing there are people that really come to the point where it's not an issue for them any longer. I'm not that person.

Kyle McDowell [00:25:56]:

I still struggle with it and I'm open about it because nobody had my mind, nobody has it figured out. And when you put that into the universe, as if I do have it all figured out, I'm all knowing. I've, you know, I'm on this perfection pedestal. Your team doesn't trust you because you can't be perfect. They fear you. As we just talked about a moment or two ago, it was an eye opening, awakening experience for me to transition from this. Only focusing on me and caring about the impact that I could have to transitioning all my energy, care, time and investment of energy into my team. It just took a while to get there.

Craig Anderson [00:26:31]:

And for you, as you're looking at, say the leader who's been kind of on the other path, an experienced leader, they've had some success, but they haven't really built into a we culture in their business and followed your print your principles or even think to what can they do to kind of change? Because hey, I'm 25 years into this career. If I start acting differently, I know what's going to happen. They're all just going to check their watches and wait for me to go back to how I was. How do you help them kind of move into this different paradigm?

Kyle McDowell [00:27:03]:

You know, it's, it's no different than dieting or exercise or any number of things in our existence that we know. It's going to be hard, but at the end of this hard, I'll be better off. The 10 ways in my approach to leadership are incredibly simple. But simple doesn't mean easy. We know if we want to lose weight, we got to burn more calories than we take in. Then why is more than 50% of our country obese? If it's that easy, if it's that simple, I should say, then everybody should be in great shape. So when I am either working with a team, and that's probably where I get most of my energy is from working with an entire leadership team at one time. And I'm really frank about this, I'll give you a better example.

Kyle McDowell [00:27:45]:

I get this question, okay, Kyle, you've worked with us for a number of weeks now. When should we start to see this take hold deeper in the organization? And my answer is the same every time. I don't know. I don't know. How committed are you to leading in a way that we is an irrefutable component of our cultural DNA? How much are you willing to give for that? And by that by the give. I mean, put your ego aside. Find the empathy that you maybe not have led with throughout the bulk of your leadership journey. Genuinely care about those you lead.

Kyle McDowell [00:28:15]:

I'm not saying you gotta be soft and mushy and go have beers with everybody three, four nights a week, but you have to be relatable. I think it's relatability plus authenticity equals trust. And if I can be relatable to my team and I'm authentically who I am, they know I'm not trying to be something I'm not. I think trust naturally follows.

Craig Anderson [00:28:35]:

I even saw that in my own career when I finally was willing to be who I was in front of everybody. It was just not like I had some deep, dark secrets, right? But, you know, I'm a huge comic book nerd. Up until recently, I had like 11,000 comic books laying around the house. But I didn't tell anybody, right? That was like this whole area that was closed off because I didn't want to, you know, I needed to be business guy. And finally I released all that. It kind of takes that veil down because we put these. I think even our teams put these things in front of us, right? That. Oh, that must be this hugely important person.

Craig Anderson [00:29:06]:

Craig didn't get here, or Kyle didn't get here if he really wasn't an ace businessman. And on the other side of that bail, you're sitting back there going, I don't know how I'm still in this job. I don't know how the heck they haven't found me out yet, right? And so you have this weird dichotomy between expectations and when you finally just kind of say, you know what, guys, I. I don't have every answer, but I believe in the team, I believe in us, and I believe we're going to find a way. And by the way, you're going to help me come up with the answers. Now everyone's like, okay, well, he's just driving. But we're all in this together, and we're all going to start moving it forward.

Kyle McDowell [00:29:38]:

Was there an event that helped you make that transition to, like, why? How did you wake up one day and know it was the right thing to share about your comic book collection? Like, what. What happened to make that change?

Craig Anderson [00:29:49]:

We had gone through this really crazy corporate, hostile, insourcing, outsourcing event, taken my team through tremendous amounts of stress. And it was all remote, right? Every. I had 100 people all over the country. We pulled them all together at Universal Studios. Islands of, you know, Universal Studios. Down in Florida, where they have the Marvel superhero island is one of the things. And I was just like, these guys need to decompress. We need to be a little less serious but still talk about it.

Craig Anderson [00:30:15]:

And I just did this whole thing where I use superheroes as paradigms or for the. To represent the ideals that we wanted to face and showed a ridiculously deep knowledge of superheroes. And I just kind of put it out there. And the funny part was, when I planned to do this speech, I had no idea that the two senior execs from JP Morgan Chase that had taken us through this, who I suddenly became a Chase employee. And as my team did, two big senior execs were going to be in the room at the same time. And let me tell you, I was prepared to do that in front of my team. I was not prepared to do that in front of senior execs from New York City who didn't know me very well. But then it was out, right? I was out there, what are you gonna do? And it was just.

Craig Anderson [00:30:58]:

And I think that kind of change started to change a little of my dynamic of being willing to do it. I'm not telling them everything that's going on in my life, but it's like, this is who I am, right? This is kind of where I'm coming from. So it's. It was an interesting thing.

Kyle McDowell [00:31:11]:

That story reminds me of two really, I think, important things for all of those in some type of position of authority. You notice I say that more than I say leader. Sometimes I say leader, sometimes I say boss. Obviously, they're not the same thing. So anyone in a position of authority just inherently to feel as if you can present something to your team in a. In a particular way, that's not okay. To present to someone more senior than you is a problem. It's a problem, right? You're not unique in that.

Kyle McDowell [00:31:43]:

I'm sure I've done it. I'm sure we've all done it. Especially if your team's in the room because they see you behaving in a way that is different than how you behave when it's just us. Just us and the team. So inherently, there's a problem where our organizations affect or rather encourage us either subliminally or directly to behave in a way that is different, depending on which audience is in the room. That's not authentic. And that's hard to follow. That's really hard for others to follow that.

Kyle McDowell [00:32:10]:

That's my. My first response to that, or my second thought was, if you're inconsistent in how you approach the team. Whether it is, you know, I'm speaking with these fancy words and I'm. And I want to portray this sense of I've got it all, the sense of, like I said, this perfection pedestal. Your team sees that the things that you're not good at, they see that you don't have to tell them which. The more you shy away from that and act as if it's not a gap or an opportunity for you, the more they distrust you because they see you putting on this facade. So I think it's a really important thing to call out. And that is being your authentic self.

Kyle McDowell [00:32:49]:

That's how you get the best results. I'm not naive, man. Every organization won't embrace that, nor do they encourage it. I've been there. And I would just say to those in your audience that are in that situation, you have to have this mirror of truth conversation. It's like, am I okay being something or someone that I'm not for this paycheck? And if the answer is yes, respect. I get it, man. We've got commitments, we've got things we have to deliver on.

Kyle McDowell [00:33:15]:

It's called work. I get it. We have to do that. But if you're open to a better way, finding more fulfillment and actually having an impact that, that, that outlast your tenure, that years from now someone looks back and say, man, I'm so grateful for having worked with Craig because he put me in a position to do things I didn't know I could do. He helped me get where I am today. If you're open to that potential, and that might involve taking a step or two backwards to go two or three forward, boy. And I'm sure you'll, you'll agree with this, the juice is actually absolutely worth that squeeze. But you have to actually make that decision.

Kyle McDowell [00:33:49]:

It's a conscious choice.

Craig Anderson [00:33:51]:

I always like to wrap up with this question, Kyle, although you may have just answered it for us. But if you could go back to Kyle, who I think you said was 25, 26, and suddenly you're managing all these people and the imposter syndrome setting in and all those things are happening, what is the one piece of advice? If you could go back in time, pick your time machine, go back, what's the one thing you would tell him that would help him carry the burden a little bit easier?

Kyle McDowell [00:34:17]:

My 20 year old self would have heard this podcast of me saying that and rolled my eyes is cliche as it sounds. And as much as I might date Myself, there is some wisdom that comes with experience. I think it's a younger leader's job to lean into that wisdom from those that have been there, done that, and kind of can. Can help them navigate this thing called corporate America. But my answer is. Is my answer, and that is, be you. Be yourself. Be your authentic self, warts and all.

Kyle McDowell [00:34:46]:

And again, not naive to the fact that that's not always embraced. And you might find yourself in a situation that says, I got to go do something else. But when you are in an environment that embraces who you are, warts and all, and the individual and unique ideas that you bring to the table, the experiences that you bring that are so different than the next person on the table at the table, you can really unlock a connection with other people that you can't otherwise forge. And that is a genuine human connection to another person. If I'm not being authentically who I am, I am. I am filtering my words. I'm behaving in a way that's not consistent with who I am. Like, if someone saw me outside of the office, they would go, who is that guy? He behaves completely different than anyone.

Kyle McDowell [00:35:28]:

If you find yourself in that situation, that there is a shelf life to that. And I think at some point you wake up and you say, gosh, I really missed out on an opportunity not to grow my career, but to have an impact on others.

Craig Anderson [00:35:39]:

Love it. Kyle, this was a fantastic conversation. If people want to get your book or follow you or learn more about you, where are the best places for them to go to do that?

Kyle McDowell [00:35:48]:

Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. As I mentioned, I was looking forward to joining you today. The book is begin with 10 principles for building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence. When I started to write the book, I told my wife, if I sell a thousand copies, I'll be over the moon. We just passed 20,000 copies sold. It has been the trip of a lifetime for me. It's just been a really fun experience.

Kyle McDowell [00:36:10]:

So that's the book. My website and all of my social handles are the same. It's Kyle McDowell, Inc. And a lot of people come on podcast and say, you can find me, find me on these platforms. And it's all these vanity metrics they're chasing. I share@ Kyle McDowell link, whether it's Instagram or TikTok or even my LinkedIn presence. You know, Kyle McDowell, I love to hear from those that have. That are walking in the shoes that I've walked in, or perhaps they're exploring or debating taking on some type of role.

Kyle McDowell [00:36:38]:

Or maybe they're just stuck. I love to hear from those types of folks. Not that I have all the answers. I have opinions on ways to kind of get through that situation. But I appreciate you giving the opportunity to share that because I love to hear from folks.

Craig Anderson [00:36:50]:

Absolutely. And we'll drop links to all those in the show notes. Kyle, thank you for sharing the story of your Executive Evolution and all the insights that are going to help a lot of leaders grow in their careers. Thanks so much for being here today.

Kyle McDowell [00:37:00]:

My pleasure, Craig. Thank you for having me.

Craig Anderson [00:37:05]:

Boy, I really enjoyed my time today with Kyle, running into somebody who has such a great view on leadership. We have a lot of similar ways we look at leadership and I really enjoyed our time together today. As always, I like to give you my three key takeaways from the interview and I focus on the areas of confidence, competence, and calm. In this episode talking to Kyle, where I really saw this idea of competence is this idea about imposter syndrome. He talked a couple of times about how much he struggles with it. I struggled with it. Many leaders feel we're not as competent as people see us and we really struggle. And we're kind of.

Craig Anderson [00:37:42]:

We talked about being on two sides of a veil where we're struggling with imposter syndrome and the team thinks we know all the answers. You know, the question I always like to come back to when I'm thinking about competence and talking to other leaders and coaching them about imposter syndrome is, you know, what evidence do you have for the insecurity that you feel? And that's a great question that will help you build your competence back when you're struggling with that issue in the area of confidence. Confidence really begins to come when you know what your role is as a leader. Kyle and I talked about how the idea that your two jobs as a leader is to clear the deck for your team and help them develop and grow. And that really shows your confidence. When you are delving down into creating dozens of things that you have to report them on and a lot of minuscule data and things that are just making their lives a living hell, that's not really raising any bars, it's just making you feel more comfortable. That's a non confident leader. A confident leader knows their job is to clear the decks for their team and to help them grow as teammates.

Craig Anderson [00:38:38]:

That's really the key. And that's when you know you've really got leadership confidence going with you. And then finally the area of calm, that idea of being authentic with your team. When you are authentic with your team, you can be a lot more calm in your leadership style because you're really genuinely being you. You're not one person in front of the team, another person at home, another person in front of the execs in your organization. So being authentic allows you to be calm. I really appreciated Kyle's insights today and the stories of how his Executive Evolution came about and how he helps leaders evolve as well. As always, remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to to the greatest of all time leaders.

Craig Anderson [00:39:18]:

All it takes is developing your competence, confidence and calm. See you next time on Executive Evolution.