Craig Anderson [00:00:00]:

The team came to me and said, not only is no one taking us up on the offer, we're actually losing business because of it. Welcome to Executive Evolution. I have over 25 years of leadership experience in corporate America. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, and I created this podcast so that you won't have to. Sometimes as leaders, when we take on new roles, we want to make a big splash immediately. And I took on a new role. I had a lot of knowledge about the space, but not this particular niche of the space. And I thought I had a great idea that we were going to go out and do this campaign.

Craig Anderson [00:00:37]:

And I got the sales reps all jazzed up. I sent them out with this whole campaign that we were going to do. Doesn't even matter what the details were. I thought it was a great idea, and I refused to listen to any input. And it turned out bombing on us. As I said, we actually lost business because of it. Our competitors took advantage of it and we really had to retrench. That was my vision and I bombed it and I had to own it.

Craig Anderson [00:01:01]:

In today's interview with Chrystal Struben, we talk a lot about the leader casting the vision, but we also talk about how you want to get input. And even though we do collect input from our teams, ultimately the vision is something that we own. I just got that a little out of order. So, as I said today, we are going to interview Chrystal Struben she is an experienced executive in the not for profit leadership space. Has a great story of her Executive Evolution. So let's jump right in. Chrystal, welcome to the Executive Evolution podcast. I am so excited to have you on today.

Chrystal Struben [00:01:37]:

I'm excited to be here and I love the name of the podcast because I do think leadership is an evolution.

Craig Anderson [00:01:43]:

It really is. When I think of what I thought I was going to be like, I always think it's funny when you're not in leadership and you look at the leaders, you're like, I would do this and I would do that and I would do the other thing. And maybe some of those things you do, but as you grow into it, you realize there's a reason that things are done the way they're done. So it's tough.

Chrystal Struben [00:02:00]:

I also think you adopt the style sometimes as the of the leaders that you've been under, even if they're not styles that you prefer. It's an evolution of how you develop that.

Craig Anderson [00:02:10]:

I know. And hopefully we got it from good leaders. I've had good leaders and bad leaders. I'VE tried not to do the things the bad leaders do. I tried to learn from that. My big worry every time I do my podcast is that all the people who work for me listen to me saying things and are like, oh, my God, come on, Craig, you are not that good. So that's. That's my anxiety that I have every time I do an episode.

Chrystal Struben [00:02:27]:

Probably every single person who talks about leadership has that. Unless they're very, very arrogant. No, I'm just kidding.

Craig Anderson [00:02:34]:

Yeah, there you go. There you go. Well, Chrystal, we always like to kick things off and get things moving with the lightning round. So are you ready to dive into our three questions for the lightning round?

Chrystal Struben [00:02:44]:

I think I'm ready.

Craig Anderson [00:02:46]:

All right, let's do it. Question number one. What is the best leadership book you have ever read?

Chrystal Struben [00:02:51]:

So I was thinking about this, and I'm not going to be able to answer it with one book because it's hard. There are so many good leadership books. So I would say, and I don't know if this counts as a leadership book, but my favorite book is David Allen's Getting Things Done. And that's just pure about organization and how you keep on top of things and are more productive. I love Patrick Lencioni, so almost every book he's written, I enjoy, and I like his podcast. But I think my favorite book overall is Traction, because it has everything in it.

Craig Anderson [00:03:24]:

Say more. What is what? What does it pull out that's so helpful for you?

Chrystal Struben [00:03:27]:

For me, I should tell you what the author is.

Craig Anderson [00:03:31]:

Oh, look, you even brought it. Nice.

Chrystal Struben [00:03:33]:

Gino Wickman, which I wouldn't have remembered that. But it. It is. It is a system of how to lead in many ways. So it has, you know, the components of how you build a team and who the team is. So the really, capability, capacity, and willingness are the three things that they talk about in terms of staff, which I think is really important to remember when you're evaluating and training, but also how to structure meetings and just the cadence of accountability and those kinds of things.

Craig Anderson [00:04:03]:

Yeah, it's such a. It's such a piece. I don't think we always think of. But so much of taking on that leadership role is building the right team and then building a cadence so that it's consistent expectation. We know what's coming, know what's coming so that everybody understands what's going on. And it just helps things move so much more smoothly. Even though I think on the outside maybe it looks like you're really anal retentive, but it's. It actually the consistency makes it so much easier because everyone knows how we're going to align.

Chrystal Struben [00:04:31]:

And it is not something unless it's already built in when you start in an organization. But in my experience, being a CEO after a founder, there was a lot of structure to be built for the next phase of the organization. And so it's very difficult to build that. And I was there 10 years and I'm still not sure I got it anywhere close to where it needs to be. But hopefully the next leader will take it to the next place.

Craig Anderson [00:04:54]:

Yeah, and I think that's interesting because a lot of times I think, and this is probably not 100%, but that founder energy is so much different than the person who comes in after them and then takes it to the next level, because the founder energy can be a little chaotic. It's all vision, it's all creation and energy, and that really births the organization. But then at a certain point, you have to start building in structures because otherwise it's just chaos and you can't control it.

Chrystal Struben [00:05:18]:

Well, it's interesting in my role because the founder had been there 34 years, and so I was the only the second CEO in that role. So it was just an interesting experience taking it from, you know, the 34 year mark to the 44 year mark.

Craig Anderson [00:05:32]:

Yeah, that May. Yeah. Following the founder may not always be the most ideal place to go in.

Chrystal Struben [00:05:36]:

Well, I think I beat the odds by about 400% because I think most people leave within the first.

Craig Anderson [00:05:43]:

Oh, yeah.

Chrystal Struben [00:05:44]:

Few years.

Craig Anderson [00:05:45]:

Yeah, oh, yeah. I think it's like three years max. All right, question number two. Who is your leadership crush?

Chrystal Struben [00:05:53]:

So I approached it as a current leader in the area. I don't know if that was the intent. I guess it could be anyone you want. Right. So my leadership crush is Maureen Weber from Early Learning Indiana.

Craig Anderson [00:06:05]:

Okay, tell me more, because I don't know her.

Chrystal Struben [00:06:07]:

She's just an amazing person. I've learned a lot from her. She and I have, you know, have regular breakfast meetings. And I admire her for her external presence and her advocacy work in the early learning space. And she's also just a great leader. And you can tell that from the outside. And, you know, obviously there's always challenges on how people internally see you, but from what I know of her and what she shared with me, because she shared a lot of great tips for me on, you know, just her style and how she sets goals and those things, and I just really appreciate her. And she's so open, you know, to sharing knowledge with people outside the organization.

Craig Anderson [00:06:45]:

Yeah, Those leaders who have figured a lot out and then are willing to mentor people and help them kind of develop their own leadership style are so valuable.

Chrystal Struben [00:06:53]:

So I don't know if Maureen will ever see this, but now she may know that she's my. My credit.

Craig Anderson [00:06:59]:

Post it on LinkedIn and tag her in it. So she.

Chrystal Struben [00:07:01]:

Oh, right, that's what I'll do. I'll see if she reads it. I'll be waiting for a text from her.

Craig Anderson [00:07:09]:

Perfect. All right, last question in the lightning round, in ten words or less, how do you define leadership?

Chrystal Struben [00:07:17]:

Be the compass, not the map.

Craig Anderson [00:07:19]:

Oh, I like that.

Chrystal Struben [00:07:21]:

A friend of mine shared that with me when I was talking through some challenges I was having and it was so brilliant and I even looked it up to see if it had been quoted from someone and I don't think it has. So I'll have to give credit where credit's due. But my friend Stephanie Cooper said it to me at one point. She was my operations person or business development or business operations person at Ars, and she was amazing, but she's the one that said it to me. So, Stephanie Cooper, maybe she came up with the next greatest leadership quote.

Craig Anderson [00:07:48]:

I'm not sure I like it. So, so tell me more like be the compass on the map. What does that mean to you? How did that help you kind of change what you were doing and solve the challenges that you had?

Chrystal Struben [00:07:58]:

Well, I'm, you know, me, I can be very 30,000ft, but I also can get into the details of it. And so sometimes I might want to kind of create that path for people and share more about, you know, maybe how you're getting from point A to point B. And I think you have to be really careful of that. So you're setting the direction. You know, here's where we're headed. But how you get from point A to point B is really up to that person. And you really just want to advise along the way versus kind of mapping it out for them.

Craig Anderson [00:08:29]:

Yeah, and it's such a tension when you're kind of in that space, because the more you kind of can set the direction and pull back, the more freedom they're going to have. But going back to what we talked about before, about the importance of having structures, if you don't have the structures, then you're kind of sitting at 30,000ft or 20,000ft, wherever you should be, and you're worried about the stuff not getting done. So having that kind of flow through is so critical, otherwise you make yourself crazy.

Chrystal Struben [00:08:55]:

Well, and you say something really important there because I think a lot of people say right people in the right seats and you hire them and you just let them go.

Craig Anderson [00:09:02]:

And.

Chrystal Struben [00:09:03]:

Yes, but if you don't have the structure, it's very difficult to do that. And if you're building or changing, there's ebbs and flows. And then, you know, depending on what the organization, what stage the organization is and what kind of pay you have, who you attract, when there's so many nuances to that. But I think over time it's something. If you can keep it in mind, then you can grow into that over time.

Craig Anderson [00:09:27]:

Yeah, 100%. And, you know, I talk a lot of times with my clients about, like, situational leadership. If you're familiar with that model or talk to them early on, you really do have to be very directive and you really aren't doing much coaching. And then you work with them and grow them to the point where they can go off on their own and they know how to do it. You have faith, they know how to do it. And then you can push back. But a lot of times people think, well, you should just give it to me and run away and leave me. That's just not how it works.

Craig Anderson [00:09:51]:

All right, so I'm going to ask you to go back a few years, Chrystal, to the very first leadership role that you ever had. Could be any leadership role you like, but what do you consider to be your first leadership role?

Chrystal Struben [00:10:03]:

That's interesting because I always think you can be a leader at any level in the organization. But I went ahead and picked my first executive level role, and that was at Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky. So it was a first a statewide organization and then a two state organization. So I was there about eight years. And I started as an associate vice president over policy and fundraising, communications, and then I moved into education, communications and fundraising. So I was there for a long time and it was a growth opportunity. I was fairly young when I got that position. And I went from a manager director level up to an AVP, you know, in my early 30s, which to me felt like wonderful opportunity to dive into that type of role.

Craig Anderson [00:10:50]:

Yeah. And what was it like? Like what? What did you find right out of the gate? What was tough? What was easy? What surprised you? That's three questions. That's terrible. What, what surprised you the most?

Chrystal Struben [00:10:59]:

The trust factor that you didn't walk in and people were all of a sudden ready to work for you. And especially, I think in nonprofits, and especially in a nonprofit like that one, where there's a Lot of. A lot of spirit and energy around the mission. That was kind of a shocker that you had to prove yourself to the staff more than they felt they had to prove themselves to you. So it was just kind of an interesting place to be. And I learned over time now when I reflect back is I could have done a much better job of sharing why I was suggesting something or what my vision was grounded in and what my experience was, because people don't always know what you've done in your career over time. And I even found that, you know, in my latest CEO role, after a while that, oh, people don't realize I came up through crisis communication. So why I'm always asking, you know, who are we sharing this with and what is the cadence of the rollout? And have you thought about this? And then it clicked one day when my coo, eventually he was my coo.

Chrystal Struben [00:12:00]:

I don't think he was at that time, but he was like, oh, that's why you asked these questions. And I thought that was probably something I could have shared, you know, earlier.

Craig Anderson [00:12:10]:

Yeah, but it's so interesting, right? We get in the role and we think we get this automatic authority, but it doesn't work like that. People need to kind of begin to know you, trust you, and they don't always know your story. And so we really have to kind of start communicating early. This is the vision. This is what we want to do. This is why I want to do it this way. And it's not an intuitive thing. We kind of just think, well, I'm the boss, people will follow.

Craig Anderson [00:12:33]:

And. And we don't live in that world, I don't think anymore. That kind of autocratic leadership method doesn't really work anymore.

Chrystal Struben [00:12:40]:

Right. Well, you also like to think if you were hired to do the role, that you know what you're doing, but you're right in that I think people want more or need more information. But also, if you're not a person that wants to, like, talk about yourself and tout yourself, it's a little harder to get in that mindset of, oh, let's lay the groundwork, you know, and you would have to do it quite often, I think, to get everyone to understand. So. But now I know that much better. And I think, you know, you get better at it in each role. So.

Craig Anderson [00:13:10]:

Yeah, no, it's really true. And I always found the funny because I was bad about it myself. It's like, I said it once. Why do I have to keep saying it? But the reality is we have to Keep talking about kind of the vision, the message, the direction where we're going, because people don't hear it until they, like, by the time you're sick of saying it, that's when people are just actually, oh, that's what she's talking about or he's talking about.

Chrystal Struben [00:13:30]:

You're so right. And as you have staff that come and go, you have to keep doing it. And then if you're reporting to a board, it's also so important. And I think that's something I kind of lost sight of, is you've got to keep that message in front of the board, and the board turns over. And when you're in a CEO role, especially nonprofit, you're in probably in all roles, you're doing that two ways constantly. You're sharing up and then you're sharing out. And it's a lot. You need the time to think, and there isn't always that time to think and plan, especially when you're in kind of a depends on what stage the organization's in and what you're facing.

Chrystal Struben [00:14:06]:

You know, Covid took a lot out of many of us, and you spent all of your time managing the crisis of it and how to keep things going. And so then you kind of lose track of, oh, I gotta keep this piece of it.

Craig Anderson [00:14:18]:

And it's so interesting when you talk about the book that you brought up, traction, Right. Because that's kind of the. One of the underpinnings of that is. Right. It's predictability around the reports. You know, you want your board to see the same things all the time. You want your staff to see the same things all the time. Here's the vision, here's the report, here's how we measure.

Craig Anderson [00:14:34]:

Right. Because then they get comfortable that, okay, we're seeing the same kind of data, we're seeing it presented the same way. I understand. And then when you're asking for whatever you're asking for, and I was like, okay. And I know I will see it in the future. I think for me, the leaders that used to frustrate me the most were the ones where the vision was constantly changing and the way we did things was constantly changing, not in reaction to something, but just because they were just changed. They. I think they didn't really necessarily know what it was.

Craig Anderson [00:15:03]:

And so everything was all over the place. And that is so frustrating.

Chrystal Struben [00:15:07]:

Yeah. And I think change, that's a really critical piece is that change management. And again, that's all dependent on where you are in an organization's life cycle. Too. And I'm big on doing functional analysis of roles. So how are we doing something? Is the right role in the organization taking care of that? And those things change. And I remember getting feedback at different times from board members of like, you're changing the structure again. And it's like, well, sometimes you have to do that.

Chrystal Struben [00:15:34]:

And especially if you're in a growth place, you've got to constantly look at those things. And so it can sometimes feel like a lot of changes. But I think that is a little different than what you're talking about. If it's a reactionary thing versus like, okay, this is going to take us to the next level, right?

Craig Anderson [00:15:51]:

Yeah. And I think my frustration was always leaders who thought they had a vision, but they didn't. And there's lots of blog posts I've written about those people and I don't think they know I'm writing about them, but who knows what they know? So we'll find out. When you think about, you know, all those lessons you learned from that early leadership role pulling through to your most recent role, how did those lessons show up in your leadership style?

Chrystal Struben [00:16:15]:

I think I spent more time over the last 10 years really trying to hone in my style. So you know this about me. I am a stream of conscious thinker, so I often will process things. And sometimes it can be confusing depending on which who your direct report is or who you're talking to. Some people will take that as, oh, we gotta get this done. And they're, they're off up to the races on an idea that was just in the incubation phase. So I've learned something very important, which is who can you do it with first? And then secondly, prefacing it with, this is not an action item. This is simply me sharing some ideas because I want to hear what you think about what I'm saying and see if I can evolve this thought process.

Chrystal Struben [00:16:56]:

So I think that's one thing from a style perspective. I'm a people pleaser kind of person. I want people to feel comfortable and I want to meet them halfway. But sometimes I feel like sometimes I meet them three quarters of the way. And so just, you know, that's a lesson I think I keep learning is, is how do you show compassion and vulnerability, but not so much that you're giving away your leadership power. So those are, I guess, kind of the big takeaways I can think of in terms of growth.

Craig Anderson [00:17:27]:

Yeah, no, that last one you mentioned is so true. I'm actually doing some writing on that right now of this whole idea that we kind of have of leadership right now, and we talk so much about compassion, vulnerability, empathy, and all good things. Right. That, you know, we should be focused. But where that trips over to where it goes too far. Because at the end of the day, we still have to have accountability. Sometimes we have to fire people. Some times people underperform.

Craig Anderson [00:17:55]:

And it is also. It's our vision, right? We can't have 10 people with a vision for what the organization is going to be. That's my job as the leader. And so we have to really watch that tension. And I feel like some ways we've kind of moved way over to one side to get away from what was signed to the abuses of the other way. Right? And so now how do we start pulling that back? Because if you want to be in charge, you need to go be in charge somewhere, right? At the end of the day, this is the way I want to do it, and this is what we're going to do. And then that's kind of what you said. Sometimes it's like, no, it's 34%.

Craig Anderson [00:18:24]:

You have to come three quarters of the way to me.

Chrystal Struben [00:18:26]:

Right.

Craig Anderson [00:18:26]:

And I'll tweet. Right, right. And it's really hard because people think all, you know, not all ideas are great. And we have to have one guiding view of the organization. And I think that's hard.

Chrystal Struben [00:18:36]:

And that's kind of the compass and the mat piece, too. That gets complicated. Because if you're. If in your experience or if you're an expert in a certain area in your background and you're leading someone who is, maybe they're strong in it, or maybe they're just coming along, sometimes you'll, you know, butt heads over, well, this strategy, you know, this tactic versus this tactic. And so the approach I try to take is, all right, I get you want to go this place. I think this is a valid way to go as well. So why don't we test it and make sure that we're not missing an opportunity? But I have a really bad habit of sometimes just not pushing it, and then the person might still go the other direction. And I don't come back and say, okay, now we're going to try it this way.

Chrystal Struben [00:19:23]:

And I think that comes into the not wanting to step on someone's toes or, you know, there's this trust thing that people talk about. But trust goes both ways. You know, I can trust you, but you also have to trust me and my experience and be respectful. Sometimes the boss is the boss. And we've got to listen to that perspective. And I think that it, that can get really hard. And I think especially for women, I think it's a harder road in my, in my view, to establish kind of that voice.

Craig Anderson [00:19:51]:

Yeah, I think it's definitely when you're a person maybe who wants everybody to kind of work well together and you want to have that communal, communal spirit in the organization and it's such, such a tension to say, you know, yes. And it's, we're going to go this way, right? I heard everybody, I understand everybody, but this is what we're going to do. And I think a lot of us want, you know, we want everyone to agree. And that's really hard, right, to get. I mean, you just need like three people in a room with you and you're going to struggle to get everybody to agree. And I think at your last place there was what, like 50 employees all.

Chrystal Struben [00:20:26]:

Told, maybe the whole organization, 200 in the administrative roles? Probably some. It did vary, but somewhere between 25 and 34, I'd say.

Craig Anderson [00:20:38]:

Yeah. And if everybody has an equal say, that's just chaos, right. It's like, okay, you guys, thank you for the information. I've assessed it. Here's what we're going to do. But I understand you, you have to push that. And that's really both in early leadership roles and even today. I think it's hard where people would be like, I'm out, okay.

Craig Anderson [00:20:54]:

And then you have to adjust.

Chrystal Struben [00:20:55]:

I've learned this about myself. I talk so much about, I think about budget and metrics and those kind of things. And when you're in a mission driven organization, I think that can be a put off for people. And so I've kind of had to reconcile, you know, what is the voice that I share and who in the organization shares kind of a different voice. And so I think as a CEO, you really have to have a balance. You got to get that mission in there and then put the business part. And it is a real balance that I don't know, that I've completely mastered at this point.

Craig Anderson [00:21:29]:

Yeah, but it's tough, especially when you're really mission driven and like we're going to do this to help these people do this thing. But then you also are going out, you know, in the not for profit space. Right. You're going out to funders, you're going out to donors, you're going out to all these people. And they're probably people who are coming out of business and they want to see these strict Results. So it's like, we have to do both. We can't lose the spirit of why we care, but we have to sit behind it and say, these are the outcomes and results. And it's tough.

Craig Anderson [00:21:56]:

It's a tough balance. All right, well, Chrystal, we're now in the fun part where you get to choose how you want to travel in time. You can take a DeLorean, you can take H.G. wells time machine, whatever you want. Go back in time to Chrystal in that first leadership role at Planned Parenthood. What's the one piece of advice you would give her that would have made it easier for her, made her more successful?

Chrystal Struben [00:22:19]:

I thought about this, and I had several answers, so I think the biggest one would be don't try so hard to please everybody.

Craig Anderson [00:22:29]:

Yeah, I love it.

Chrystal Struben [00:22:31]:

Like, figure out what you think based on the information you've received, being a good listener, and then go down that path. And don't try so hard to be everything to everybody.

Craig Anderson [00:22:42]:

That could be a whole book.

Chrystal Struben [00:22:44]:

You know, it could. And we've been talking about writing, and I keep thinking, you know, I need to just get. Whether anyone reads it or not, I need to get some of these ideas I have on paper, too, because it really helps me solidify, you know, what I think and how I lead. So I need to get on that.

Craig Anderson [00:22:59]:

Yeah. Don't try so hard to please everyone. Leadership by Chrystal Strubin. That's it. There's the book. We'll put that in the show notes if you get it done before December.

Chrystal Struben [00:23:07]:

Thank you. Thank you. I will. Maybe I'll write something before. Before this gets up. That's my goal.

Craig Anderson [00:23:13]:

Well, Chrystal, if people want to connect with you, find out more about you, where is the best place for them to do that?

Chrystal Struben [00:23:18]:

At this point, I'd say LinkedIn is the best place. Yep.

Craig Anderson [00:23:21]:

We'll drop a link to your profile in LinkedIn and you can follow Chrystal out there. Chrystal, thank you so much for coming on and sharing the story of your Executive Evolution. I really appreciate it.

Chrystal Struben [00:23:29]:

Thank you. It's a privilege to be. To be asked, so thank you.

Craig Anderson [00:23:33]:

Thank you so much.

Chrystal Struben [00:23:33]:

All right.

Craig Anderson [00:23:38]:

I really appreciated Chrystal's interview. Just the passion she has for leadership, the amount of effort she puts into growing as a leader, and just the great energy she brought to the podcast today. So thanks, Chrystal, for joining us and sharing the story of your Executive Evolution. As always, I like to pull out the highlights from the interview and focus them in the areas of confidence, competence, and calm. In the area of confidence, what I really appreciated was How Chrystal talked about the idea of be the compass, not the map. You really are the one setting the big vision in the big direction for the company. You want to pull up some information from your teammates, but ultimately it is your vision and the one that is going to drive the company forward. And you need to be the compass setting that direction and then working with the team to ensure that the map is being filled out correctly.

Craig Anderson [00:24:23]:

In the area of competence, what I really appreciated was Chrystal's ongoing learning about leadership mentality, how she reads, how she absorbs content. And, you know, we talked a lot about how the one book she read really helped put some strong boundaries and strengths and structures into her leadership strategies and presence. So you really can start to build confidence, even on your own by reading and growing and listening to podcasts. That's how you start to develop confidence as a leader. And then finally, in the area of calm, she talked about the importance of the mentor, you know, her leadership crush, that mentor that she had who's really helped her along on her journey. And when you can bring experienced people into your life, be they mentors or coaches, that can help give you perspective, guidance, and direction. That helps you to build calm in your environment and in your leadership. So remember, you can go from being an accidental leader to the greatest leader of all time.

Craig Anderson [00:25:19]:

All it takes is developing your confidence, confidence and calm. We'll see you next time on Executive Evolution.